H05057 PAGAN/BIBLICAL ALLUSIONS IN FFMC 7/17/05 - HARDY FORUM ARCHIVES ______________________________________________________

H05057 PAGAN/BIBLICAL ALLUSIONS IN FFMC 7/17/05 - HARDY FORUM ARCHIVES ____________________________________________________________________________

From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk

Subject: RE: TV Adaptation of Under the Greenwood Tree

Date: July 17, 2005 2:36:51 AM PDT

Rosemarie writes: If one movie happens to feature Liddy enjoying sexual frolics after the Shearing Supper feast I can only hope she held on to her skin as her ovine sisters did not

I didn't realize that the sheep were sexually frolicking when they lost their skins!!

Actually, however, regarding the fertility rites, as Charles Phythian-Adams points out, most of the festivals held during the agrarian year coincided with the ancient fertility rites, and sheep-shearing supper is no exception, May being closely connected with fertility celebrations.

Jacky

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From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: Fertility Rites in FFMC

Date: July 17, 2005 7:21:38 AM PDT

Fertility?" Perhaps Charles Phythian-Adams was not paying attention to Hardy's ironies.

First is that the May instalment opens with the near extinction of Bathsheba's flock (as you know the serialisation of FFMC followed month by month the actual seasons of the real world). "Fertility" is almost doomed in this instance. Second, there is the shearing session where Oak's knife slips and he wounds the ewe in his care. Third, the May instalment concludes with the first meeting of Bathsheba and Troy in the fir plantation (XXIII).

Wherever the goddess of spring is at this point she seems to be slacking. At any rate -- "fertility" seems to be jeopardised this particular May -- emphasised, in the fir plantation event, by the allusion to the Ninth Plague of Egypt (XXIII). The origin of the allusion is Exodus 10-21: Moses is warned that "there may be darkness over the land." The omen is significant.

Cheers,

Rosemarie

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From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk

Subject: RE: Fertility Rites in FFMC

Date: July 17, 2005 8:32:56 AM PDT

Alternatively, Hardy compares the sheep rising from its fleece with Aphrodite (p.128 Morgan's Penguin Classics Edition), a pagan goddess of love, and Boldwood, in a typically fertility May Day rites tradition, disappears into the countryside with Bathsheba. Further, Bathsheba is seated at the head of the festive table - Queen of the festivities, indeed, of the May, perhaps, strengthened by Hardy's reference: 'Bathsheba had shown indications of anointing (Gabriel)' (p. 133), Further, in the supper sequence, Hardy refers to Bathsheba as being 'enthroned' (p. 136). In fact, the scene is alive with pagan, Bacchanalian and Classic imagery, emphasized by Gabriel's pan-pipes and the reclining figures of the rustics 'as merry as the gods in homer's heaven'. As for the subsequent scene, could it not also be interpreted as a Midnight Masque in 'a vast, low, naturally formed hall, the plumy ceiling of which was supported by slender pillars of living wood, the floor being covered with a soft dun carpet,' where the darkness acts as a black domino helping to hide the faces of the participants in this most highly erotic carnival devices, carnival being intimately related, of course to fertility rites - an analogy further emphasized by their ritualistic carnivalesque exchange: "Are you a woman?", "I am a man" (see Terry Castle's book on masques),

Jacky

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From: patrick@prassociates.co.uk

Subject: RE: Fertility Rites in FFMC

Date: July 17, 2005 9:07:15 AM PDT

There are other pagan parallels in FFMC , for example the resemblance between the biblical Bathsheba and Artemis/Diana, the virgin, moon-goddess hunter of the Classical world, patroness of witches and originally a great goddess of fertility .

Did TH allude to the then emerging notion that European women of many descriptions had somehow preserved an ancient lunar knowledge and spirituality that had been condemned since the Middle Ages as witchcraft and sorcery?

In 1872 (two years before the publication of FFMC) , in his Literary Notes, Hardy summarised a passage from Fraser's The Golden Bough: "In the sacred grove & sanctuary of Diana Nemorensis or Diana of the Wood near the town of Aricia (the modern La Riccia) grew a certain tree round which a strange figure prowled, drawn sword in hand. He was a priest and a murderer. A candidate for the priesthood cd. only succeed by slaying him, & having slain him he held office till he was himself slain." (Björk, 1985). That also seems reminiscent of Troy and Boldwood.

Patrick Roper

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From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk

Subject: RE: Fertility Rites in FFMC

Date: July 17, 2005 9:47:16 AM PDT

Yes, indeed, Patrick, in fact throughout the novel Hardy is at pains to draw attention to the unity in rural life between Christian faith, pagan beliefs and and nature. In fact, the marriage of Bathsheba and Oak could be perceived as the unifying of these forces. It is interesting that Oak refers to the 'Great Mother' before the storm, and when Bathsheba kneels by Troy's body Hardy compares her with the stuff that the mothers of great sons are made of, thus equating her, perhaps, with the Great Mother Nature. Having been born and bred in the country Hardy could not have helped but be influenced by the agrarian community's interconnection between pagan and Christian, witness the way Poorgrass treats church litanies as ritual charms, recited to banish the influence of evil and thus allow him to open the gate.

Jacky

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From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: RE: Fertility Rites in FFMC

Date: July 17, 2005 10:33:19 AM PDT

Hmm -- how rich it all is. Abundant with cross-currents and narrative undertow. It sounds as if your thesis, Jacky, is going great guns.

I tend to think, though, that much of this (below) is either ironic or tongue-in-cheek. "Aphrodite" -a sheep? Hmmmm .. I might not be the only one to groan at this slightly ridiculous comparison. But to get to the crux of it. Bathsheba "enthroned"? -- that is surely an inflation at which we are invited to smile - after all she is knitting (on her throne?), - indeed, the whole scene is relaxed and informal, right down to little Bob Coggan's choking fit of the giggles. Bathsheba tries to be dignified & queenly at all times-- in public --(this is why Oak's shaming of her is so cruel) thoroughly taken up with learning her new "Mistress-of-the-Manor" role but the narrative usually invites us to smile at her self-seriousness.

Pagan, Bacchanalian and Classic imagery, - absolutely!. But frequently undercut by irony (or, as in the chapter on Troy and his "Greek" sensuousness, underscored by narrative devices - classic allusions -- employed to get around Mrs Grundy and the verboten subject of sex). And where the rustics are reclining "as merry as the gods in homer's heaven" shouldn't we be amused? Because, in fact, they are drunk. -- getting "merry" on cider as the sunset creeps to its "death" and the conversation turns on the thief Pennyways (heavily ironised -- he's now a "masterpiece " of fine art!) -- who they are all now praising to the rooftops in their inebriate revelry.

I see this scene as light relief. Although originally it was 'darker" with Pennyways' talk of Fanny's success as a fallen woman in the city (Ruined Maid incarnate) which upsets Bathsheba. I'm not trying to to say that carnivalesque is inoperative - on the contrary, I think it is finely tuned to every cross-current and thematic undertow that so marvellously enriches this text. But I don't think we should push analogies too far. And I do like the idea of Masque -(fir plantation) -- especially apt given Troy's (sinister) trapping of Bathsheba with his spur -- her gown entangled in the sharp, hard projection on his boot sets the aspect of costume in place; she still has her party dress on and he's in military uniform, and, of course they are both almost invisible to each other.

But back to the scene in question -- I wonder how others view the Shearing Supper ?

Cheers

Rosemarie

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From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: RE: Fertility Rites in FFMC

Date: July 17, 2005 7:47:13 PM PDT

Well (says she , immodestly), since you have my book (cited in your last email) you'll have plenty of background on the Pagan-Christian crossover in FFMC. The wrong-naming of Cainy Ball is a particularly satiric touch, and the fact that the church cannot undo the wrongdoing concludes the episode with marvellous irony since, if it wasn't for churchgoing Mama-Ball wouldn't have heard of Cain in the first place. Hardy's reversals of biblical "truths" (or rather his rustics') -- or of turning the "truth" into the untruth --are one of the best things in the book. And as for Poorgrass' last misuse of the biblical text --now if that isn't a caustic Last Word on the Oak-Bathsheba marriage I don't know what is.

Good stuff -

Rosemarie

Having been born and bred in the country Hardy could not have helped but be influenced by the agrarian community's interconnection between pagan and Christian,

Jacky

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From: sheskijoan@hotmail.com

Subject: RE: Fertility Rites in FFMC

Date: July 18, 2005 9:06:42 AM PDT

I haven't had time to read all the comments on this topic, so forgive possible redundancies, please.

FFMC is, I think, the most positive of TH's novels, and belongs more in the romantic than the ironic mode. It is a fertility rite as a whole; it brings harmony and love out of the mistakes and setbacks of youth. Both Bathsheba and Gabriel are nature-legends if not pagan goddess and god influenced.

Gabriel's roots go back to Pan, and Bathsheba is definitely aligned with the natural world. Consider her entrance: atop a wagon, surrounded by flowers, riding across meadows...a prehistoric spring celebration of life renewed comes to mind. On her horse, lying back, she becomes literally part of the landscape (exciting Gabriel, watching secretly like some elf). But the really magnificent demonstration of their connection with fertility, and a nature that reaches back before humans, is in the Great Storm.

Later novels trace the wounding and death of this connection, and resultant loss of fertility.

Joan Sheski

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From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk

Subject: RE: Fertility Rites in FFMC

Date: July 18, 2005 9:37:38 AM PDT

Yes, Joan, this is very much along the lines I see this novel - it lacks the

growing pessimism of Hardy's later novels, any irony which is present is

gentle and without thorns. It is, indeed, for me a type of bildungsroman of

Bathsheba and her complete acceptance into the Natural kingdom signified in

her marriage to Gabriel. I think Gabriel's peeping pattern in the early

stages of the novel is an interesting one. In the biblical sense, Bathsheba

was peeped upon by David, the Shepherd King, in his lusting after her. Need

I say more?

Jacky

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From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: RE: Fertility Rites in FFMC

Date: July 18, 2005 10:05:33 AM PDT

Perhaps you should say more? Is Oak then to be aligned with a King who forcibly appropriated the maidservant Bathsheba and took her into his keeping, then to ensure his uninterrupted possession and enslavement of her person sends her husband off to the wars where he meets certain death?

This is Hardy's most overtly "pastoral" novel. I feel this analogy is rather too hard upon Gabriel Oak. Sure, he steals her freedom but he doesn't physically rape.

Cheers,

Rosemarie

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From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk

Subject: RE: Fertility Rites in FFMC

Date: July 18, 2005 1:29:33 PM PDT

I do not think for a minute that Hardy took the analogy thus far, it is much more a play on names and typological badinage. One asks why he chooses the name Bathsheba, surely because she is provocative and sensual, not because she was Hebraic and lived near a king's palace. I am sure you are not suggesting for an instant, Rosemarie, that Hardy took his biblical analogies so seriously. When one thinks of Bathsheba one then thinks of David, when one thinks of David, then one thinks of shepherd, when one thinks of shepherd then, in this context, one thinks of Gabriel Oak who, just like the biblical David 'fancied' Bathsheba.

All the best,

Jacky

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From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: RE: Fertility Rites in FFMC

Date: July 18, 2005 2:28:02 PM PDT

No-- Jacky -- you were making the comparison - not Hardy, not me. It never occurred to me to "think of" Oak in terms of David. And certainly I never thought of Bathsheba as connected with the biblical version.

Best,

Rosemarie

_____________

"It happened, late one afternoon, when David arose from his couch and was walking upon the roof of the king's house, that he saw from the roof a woman bathing; and the woman was very beautiful. And David sent and inquired about the woman. And one said, "Is not this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?" So David sent messengers, and took her; and she came to him, and he lay with her .... And the woman conceived; and she sent and told David, "I am with child." (2 Samuel 11:2-5 RSV)

Of all of the troubles that King David faced during his lifetime, the incident of adultery with Bathsheba was the most grave. The unfaithful act was itself very serious, but then a murder was committed as part of an attempted cover up.

The Killing of Uriah

Bathsheba's husband was Uriah, a loyal soldier of the king. When attempts failed to make it appear that Uriah was the father of the child that his wife was expecting (2 Samuel 11:6-13), David resorted to making her a widow so that he could take her as his own wife. Incredibly, Uriah was even used to deliver his own death warrant:

"In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab, and sent it by the hand of Uriah. In the letter he wrote, "Set Uriah in the forefront of the hardest fighting, and then draw back from him, that he may be struck down, and die." And as Joab was besieging the city, he assigned Uriah to the place where he knew there were valiant men. And the men of the city came out and fought with Joab; and some of the servants of David among the people fell. Uriah the Hittite was slain also." (2 Samuel 11:14-17 RSV)

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From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk

Subject: RE: Fertility Rites in FFMC

Date: July 18, 2005 4:08:43 PM PDT

I stand corrected, Rosemarie, but still adhere to my point. In the light of the biblical references you give, however, it makes much more sense of poorgrass's brief 'eulogy' on their marriage - Gabriel was indeed married to a woman who may be perceived as the whore of Babylon - the biblical Bathsheba.

All the best

Jacky

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From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: RE: Fertility Rites in FFMC

Date: July 18, 2005 7:09:41 PM PDT

Yikes! Now we are getting complicated. The "Whore of Babylon" is, customarily, the Catholic Church and or Rome. (I think horos is Greek for city) - (and Poorgrass' ref was to Hosea not Revelations)

Cheers,

(BUT - read on/I stole this -- just now - off the internet in rather a rush -- late for an appointment. There are probably better elucidations)

__________________________________

The Greek word in this passage is horos. Of the sixty-five occurrences of this word in the New Testament, only three are rendered "hill" by the King James Version. The remaining sixty-two are translated as "mountain" or "mount." Modern Bibles have similar ratios. If the passage states that the Whore sits on "seven mountains," it could refer to anything. Mountains are common biblical symbols, often symbolizing whole kingdoms (cf. Ps. 68:15; Dan. 2:35; Amos 4:1, 6:1; Obad. 8-21). The Whore's seven mountains might be seven kingdoms she reigns over, or seven kingdoms with which she has something in common.

The number seven may be symbolic also, for it often represents completeness in the Bible. If so, the seven mountains might signify that the Whore reigns over all earth's kingdoms.

Even if we accept that the word horos should be translated literally as "hill" in this passage, it still does not narrow us down to Rome. Other cities are known for having been built on seven hills as well. ____________

The phrase "Babylon the great" (Greek: Babulon a megala) occurs five times in Revelation (14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2, and 18:21). Light is shed on its meaning when one notices that Babylon is referred to as "the great city" seven times in the book (16:19, 17:18, 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21). Other than these, there is only one reference to "the great city." That passage is 11:8, which states that the bodies of God's two witnesses "will lie in the street of the great city, which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified."

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From: patrick@prassociates.co.uk

Subject: RE: Fertility Rites in FFMC

Date: July 19, 2005 4:28:48 AM PDT

An interesting comment, Rosemarie. From what I can establish, Bathsheba has never been a common female name in England and Hardy must, one imagines, have thought quite carefully about using it.

While I agree that he may not have been trying to draw any parallel between his heroine and the biblical Bathsheba, he would have been well aware, surely, that his readers might read something into it.

Patrick Roper

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From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: Bathsheba

Date: July 19, 2005 5:12:41 AM PDT

Jacky- I think we should agree to differ on this. I would, though, love to hear more of the "naming" topic. I have not myself, gone beyond the conventional analyses--that at first Oak was called Strong, which implies that Hardy has the notion of his stoicism from the outset. And that Bathsheba was so named for everyday connotations with beauty (as someone else has observed she is also aligned with various goddesses of beauty and fertility, but then Oak is aligned with Satan so I'm not sure how much reliance we place on the allusions). For the numerous name changes in FFMC see page 161 of my *Cancelled Words*- most of them appear to be playful (the change from Poorhead to Poorgrass is such a shame-- given his multiplying eye) .

But on the biblical story, told by patriarchs, we must agree to differ. I don't regard a woman forcibly "taken" -- the OT says she was *taken* by the king's men - for the king's pleasure - as anything less than rape. Sunday School stories educated me differently but I have since then taken up biblical studies. I don't see Bathsheba's appropriation as a "chink in his armour" - poor "distressed" King David ! -- any more than I see Tess' appropriation by Alec as a chink in his armour. Nor did Alec follow the Chase act with homicide.

But as I say, let's agree to differ on this. Perhaps you should ask Ian what he thinks -- say one day in your youth you had been seized from the arms of your dearly beloved husband and taken to another man's bed, and confined there, while Ian is killed off to get him out of the way? How about that? .

But enough of that (we can continue on in our private chats). Any more on the naming would be useful - for example, are there any instances in Victorian art of portrayals of Bathsheba (or did Victorian perhaps stay clear of this disturbing topic?). Adrienne Auslander Munich's wonderful book, *Andromeda's Chains* has much on the iconography of the Virgin (Rossetti) on mythic monsters (Leighton, Morris et al) on Bacchanalia (Pater, Morris), Medusa, Andromeda, Judith, -- as also on themes of bondage, martyrdom, rescue fantasy, pornography and so on. But nothing on Bathsheba. Any ideas?

Cheers,

Rosemarie

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From: ian@wilkibob.me.uk

Subject: RE: Fertility Rites in FFMC

Date: July 19, 2005 5:49:52 AM PDT

The Victorians were well acquainted with the use of biblical names and analogies, and of course, even the least literate of families would have the bible read to them at least weekly, and more often on a daily basis at meal times. Hardy would be well aware of his readers' knowledge, and, in my opinion, used the name Bathsheba to instigate a biblical view as Bathsheba as, to say the least, and immodest and vain female. Perhaps a part of his whole plan was to prove that you cannot prejudge, for his Bathsheba is much more than the biblical cardboard cutout woman.

All the best

Jacky

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From: gary.alderson@btinternet.com

Subject: Re: Bathsheba

Date: July 19, 2005 5:54:14 AM PDT

I think the strength of David's sending for Bathsheba may depend upon your translation of the OT. Here's a few alternative translations of 2 Sam 11: 4-5

Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (She had purified herself from her uncleanness.) Then she went back home. The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, "I am pregnant." - (New International)

4And David sent messengers, and took her; and she came in unto him, and he lay with her; for she was purified from her uncleanness: and she returned unto her house. (KJV)

And David sent messengers, and took her; and she came in unto him, and he lay with her (for she was purified from her uncleanness); and she returned unto her house. (ASV)

So David sent messengers and took her, and she came to him, and he lay with her. (Now she had been purifying herself from her uncleanness.) Then she returned to her house. And the woman conceived, and she sent and told David, "I am pregnant." (ESV).

So David sent messengers to fetch her, and she came to him, and he lay with her (NRSV)

While they generally agree that the messengers "took her", she doesn't seem to have been backwards in coming forward herself - she "came in unto him". And given that the Bible is about to tell us that David has her husband murdered, if he'd raped her I'm sure it would have made that quite clear as well. The heading (admittedly later) to Psalm 51 only indicates adultery.

Many people in the Bible are "taken" various places, without rape being involved - Abraham is "taken outside" by God to see the stars, Joseph is "taken" by his brothers and thrown in the pit. In return, Joseph's brothers are "taken" in by the Egyptians to eat with him.

Bathsheba ends up as a loved wife of David - after the death of their firstborn he comforts her, and their next child is King Solomon. Solomon, of course, is the chap credited with writing the Song of Songs - the book you used with a key in divination to discover who your loved one would be.

Given Bathsheba was "taken" to see the King, and he had only one thing in mind - maybe she thought it was best to go along with it. In which case we're back with Tess and Alex.

All quite ironic: as far as I remember, the only bath in FFTMC is taken by the sheep.

Gary Alderson

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From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk

Subject: RE: Bathsheba

Date: July 19, 2005 6:16:11 AM PDT

I think one of the clever aspects in hardy as a novelist is that he draws from all sources, Dorset folklore, with which many of his local readers would be acquainted, Classical mythology, with which the more academic of his readers would be acquainted, and biblical references, with which all levels and types of society would be well-acquainted. I would beg to differ with you, too, on the satanic image of Oak. Oak, to me, is, indeed, the strong pastoral heroic figure, but his position of shepherd immediately brings to the canvas all the Christian connotations of Shepherd King and the Good Shepherd. If there is a devil in FFMC then, for me, it is not Gabriel, but Troy, As I have pointed out earlier, the demonic connotations with regard to Troy are littered throughout the book - the serpent, the pitchfork, the red and black clothing of the devil, his close connection with supernatural events - whilst Troy leads the Danse Macabre in the barn, the lightening and thunder reflect the Danse Macabre outside. He is even depicted in satanic mode as he leads the drunken host from the barn.

One of the points I find most interesting, however, is that, for the Victorian, patriarchal, religious society Bathsheba was perceived as a woman who transgressed the rules of society - not David, but Bathsheba - this is after all a male-dominated society. For Leslie Stephen and others, the name Bathsheba would probably carry all these implications, and would arouse a suspicious uneasiness in them. The fact that Hardy's heroine, both in name and action, also transgresses the norms of this patriarchal society suggests that, perhaps, he was throwing down a gauntlet in regard to feminine self-will even at this early stage in his writing career.

All the best,

Jacky

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From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk

Subject: RE: Bathsheba

Date: July 19, 2005 6:18:41 AM PDT

Rosemary writes: For the numerous name changes in FFMC see page 161 of my *Cancelled Words*- most of them appear to be playful (the change from Poorhead to Poorgrass is such a shame-- given his multiplying eye) .

Actually, Rosemary, and perhaps ironically, considering this repartee, it was reading your section on naming which instigated my thoughts on Bathsheba et al!!

Jacky

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From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: Re: Bathsheba

Date: July 19, 2005 6:43:06 AM PDT

Thanks for the alternative translations, Gary. I expect there are a bunch more with differing language. But all in all, I think that if I were given orders, under guard, to go to the King of Israel I would also go quietly. The biblical "taken"--especially if you're going to be thrown into a pit - indicates "arrest."

Much is dependent on who writes the story. Mine might come out differently had I been permitted to write it (even supposing I had been taught to write in the first place. Traditionally the enslaved are not so taught). And the writers of the bible stories rarely consider rape a serious issue. More serious is what happens to the men The importance of Bathsheba's summons is not nearly as significant (to the bible patriarchs) as the murder of her husband. One wife didn't count even a quarter as much as one soldier (if she counted at all -- which seem to be the case).

And yes-- she gave birth to Solomon and King David appears to have treated her well. But let us not forget that the death of the baby was interpreted as a sign of rage from God! King D is now a scared man! He does appear not to have further mistreated Bathsheba -- -- another common link to Tess and Alec...

Interesting you cite the Songs of S -- Hardy gives the Book of Ruth as the source of the book you used with a key in divination

Cheers.

Rosemarie

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From: nhardyboy@aol.com

Subject: Re: Bathsheba

Date: July 19, 2005 7:25:34 AM PDT

I didn't think I'd get involved in this particular discussion, but as the one who made an off-hand reference to fertility rites in FFMC that apparently kick-started this wonderful debate, I suppose I should put in my oar.

If--and I emphasize IF--Hardy meant the name Bathsheba to be a reflection on the Biblical story, isn't it logical to assume that the King David figure isn't so much Gabriel as it is Boldwood? Rather than act on his desire, Gabriel essentially renounces it and becomes, as would Diggory in _Return of the Native_, a guardian angel to his beloved and wins her after a long period of patience and largely silent suffering. Boldwood, however, is the closest thing to a temporal "king" in the novel, and his lust for Bathsheba drives him to neglect his "kingdom"--his lands, crops, and people who tend them--and further spurs him to murder Troy, who could be read as an ersatz Uriah. If Gabriel is to be a "Green Man" figure, then, we could see this as Hardy's ironic subversion of a well-known Judeo-Christian story: rather than the sinning David being forgiven by God and going on to father a great and wise king, D avid/Boldwood is efectively rendered impotent and sent into isolation, while the representative of a form of Nature worship, Gabriel, is allowed to prosper and triumph.

Again, this is so much supposition on my part, and not a reading I'm entirely comfortable with. Just thought I'd put it out there.

Vale,

Paul Niemeyer

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From: wesspix1@btinternet.com

Subject: Re: Bathsheba

Date: July 19, 2005 7:52:13 AM PDT

I always say there's nothing like pushing things too far...

David is at home in Jerusalem at "the time when kings go to war". Why? Because he's past the first flush of youth - no longer the athletic warrior hero, now an armchair general. His armies, including the ill-fated Uriah, are out at the front. A dangerous position for David to be in, as his generals can now cover themselves in glory, just as David did in his youth - and look what happened to Saul. Troy is the dashing youth compared to the staid middle-aged man. David, like Boldwood, is in middle-age. Maybe David's seduction of Bathsheba is a mid-life crisis. He does indeed kill his dashing, youthful rival - as does Boldwood. But I think that's about it! In reality, the gormless, hapless and faithful Uriah is far more like Gabriel Oak - but without the happy ending.

In a twentieth-first century reading of the novel, I can imagine Boldwood as a stalker - playing "Every Breath you take" in his room at night while pinning photos of Bathsheba on the wall...

Incidentally, am I right in thinking that the naming of the carved nature spirits in churches as "Green Men" doesn't go back as far as Victorian times? I seem to remember it's an early 20th century definition.

Gary Alderson

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From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk

Subject: RE: Bathsheba

Date: July 19, 2005 8:10:02 AM PDT

In a twentieth-first century reading of the novel, I can imagine Boldwood as a stalker - playing "Every Breath you take" in his room at night while pinning photos of Bathsheba on the wall...

Mmmm - I love it! Boldwood as David - now that's an angle I hadn't figured on - as the Americans say, so they say! Interesting! I have retired into my chamber, and will sit on my throne with my head resting on my hand, in true Victorian depiction of Israelite, moody king, pose, and ponder that image! Now, where did I put that CD?

Jacky

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From: Charles.Anesi@wellsfargo.com

Subject: RE: Bathsheba

Date: July 19, 2005 8:22:31 AM PDT

Boldwood as David always made the most sense to me. He actively tries to get rid of Troy by offering to buy him off and is, relative to the other characters, a man of power and property - about as kingly as you could get in context.

Chuck Anesi

charles.anesi@wellsfargo.com

office 480-575-3478

cell 612-940-3345

fax 480-575-3519

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From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: Re: Bathsheba

Date: July 19, 2005 8:37:17 AM PDT

Aha! the plot thickens. This is at least, analogous. Hmm -- But you're as uncomfortable with it as I would be.

Do I sense your discomfiture to be caused by trying to fit Hardy's words, his text, his story, into pre-figured patterns such as analogues/allusions -- that to make such a "fit' is reductive? Should it not be the other way round? that the analogue/allusion, being a-priori, remains part of the writer/reader's repository of experience and kept at all times anterior to the text proper?

Excuse the mental fumbling. I haven't cleared this with my brain as yet.

Who was who said that poetic memory allows for recognition ? that every writer in the act of writing recalls another writer and even another self-writer (same goes for the reader). These memory functions may manifest as allusions and analogues and readers might be expected to recognise them. But like all figurations they are used for effect -- Hardy's allusion to Shakespeare's "bare ruined choirs" invites an act of recognition not a tailoring of the entire collection to one naked outfit.

But I'm waffling here so I'll stop - I have to think this sketchy stuff out properly.

Cheers,

Rosemarie

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From: patrick@prassociates.co.uk

Subject: RE: Bathsheba

Date: July 19, 2005 10:28:29 AM PDT

A wonderful piece of waffling though - I wish you had not stopped since I am way behind you in thinking that sort of stuff out. Writers such as TH do seem often to have this wonderful quality of palimpsest like the Antonioni film where one cannot be sure if the thing in the bushes is a gun or just a chance shape of leaves.

Now I am waffling.

Patrick

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From: nhardyboy@aol.com

Subject: Re: Bathsheba

Date: July 19, 2005 11:07:10 AM PDT

Rosemarie, you read me like a cheap graphic novel. Indeed, I do not wish to shoehorn Hardy's novel into anything from 2. Samuel (or is it 1. Kings? As Joseph Heller's King David asks, didn't he deserve a book of his own?--but I digress). I do not for one minute believe that Hardy sat down and wrote a modern retelling of the David-and-Bathsheba story, nor do I think Hardy consciously made Gabriel into a "pastoral king," as has been argued by others in the past. Such readings would be too pat and glib for my tastes. I believe that the wonder in any great book is the multiplicity of readings it can contain; if I were to say that Hardy confined himself to one rigid structure and that using this structure shows the way the novel is to be read, I would miss out on the other ways it is open to be read. To put it in terms many on this list will recognize, I distrust all Causabons who have a _Key to All M ythologies_ to peddle.

That said, I do indeed believe that Hardy might have had the David-and-Bathsheba story in mind, if only for a second or two, but that second is still just the tiniest slice of the multiplicity of thought that went into the creation of the novel.

Best,

Paul Niemeyer

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From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk

Subject: RE: Bathsheba

Date: July 19, 2005 11:19:12 AM PDT

Rosemary Morgan writes: But like all figurations they are used for effect -- Hardy's allusion to Shakespeare's "bare ruined choirs" invites an act of recognition not a tailoring of the entire collection to one naked outfit.

Yes, I agree with this, Rosemarie, and perhaps it would be more proper to state that the biblical influences which affected Hardy's own life will find resonances within his work, just as one discovers resonances of Fielding, Browning, Darwin, and Burney, all of whom are evidenced in his novel.

Furthermore, I think there are other factors at work here. For our era the Bible is not an ever-present influence as it was in Victorian times, thus we lose the typological and biblical interconnections which were prevalent in Victorian literature. Equally, without sounding too obvious, I hope, one cannot read a work without bringing one's own experiences to bear on it.

In a case in point, I remember when I was at training college many moons ago writing an essay on Tess in which I stated I totally empathized with Tess's naiveté, and felt, that as a sheltered eighteen year old in the late 1950s, I too, would have been as naïve as Tess. My tutor, however, could not believe that anyone could be so naïve, perhaps the difference between a very inexperienced country girl, and an older, more sophisticated female tutor.

One's vision cannot help but be influenced by one's background and experiences, just as Hardy's work shows the influences of his.

All the best,

Jacky

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From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: RE: Bible

Date: July 19, 2005 12:20:13 PM PDT

One of the significant differences between today's reader and the Victorian is that nobody nowadays vilifies Hardy for his sacreligious dialogues It was not just sexual explicitness Leslie Stephen cut it was also the sacreligious talk of the rustics (see also contemporary critics of TH's poetry). It may be that we live in a more liberal climate, (intellectually-speaking) regarding belief systems, but I suspect it also has to do with the fact that today's readers don't know their bible so cannot even begin to pick up on Hardy's biblical references let alone know they are being misappropriated.

Rosemarie

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From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk

Subject: RE: Bible

Date: July 19, 2005 1:11:38 PM PDT

Precisely - thus, as with many other factors in many other novels, much of the original meaning or intention is lost by progressive changing and distancing.

All the best

Jacky

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From: gary.alderson@btinternet.com

Subject: Re: Bible

Date: July 19, 2005 2:41:56 PM PDT

I'd agree regarding the Biblical references - which were probably more recognisable then than now. The Victorians were astounded to discover, when they looked into it, that in fact only 40% of people went to church - but they would generally have been the ones more likely to be reading books for a leisure activity. But the things that go over my head when reading Hardy tends to be the references to the Classics and obscure philosophers - and I'd be surprised if they didnt' go equally over the heads of most of his readership at the time.

Gary Alderson

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From: gary.alderson@btinternet.com

Subject: Re: Bathsheba

Date: July 19, 2005 2:46:32 PM PDT

Surely what Hardy does is the most natural thing in developing a novel - and the most likely to produce a realistic result: i.e. spring off from the things you know, but making the end result the thing that's unique. So you can take Biblical overtones of a flirtatious, attractive woman (let's face it, there are judges in England even today that would say bathing in the nude on top of your house was asking for it), make the allusion through her name - and leave it at that. In the same way, you can call your hero and heroine Fancy and Dick - and leave your audience to make up their own jokes. You can take true stories of men selling their wives - which used to happen in London as well as the West Country - and head off from there with a tragedy of Greek proportions. The allusions, the true stories, the folk tales are simply the background and raw materials to the true act of creation.

Gary Alderson

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