H05040 HARDY AND GOETHE- 5/22/05 - HARDY FORUM ARCHIVES ____________________________________________________________________________
From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk
Subject: Hardy and Goethe
Date: May 22, 2005 2:02:34 PM PDT
Hello again!
I wonder if anyone can tell me if Hardy was acquainted with either Goethe's Faust or Marlow's Dr Faustus? As part of my dissertation I am comparing troy with various depictions of the devil - or Mephistopheles - and have discovered that he (Troy) shares many of the characteristics of Goethe's Mephistopheles. it would be interesting to know if there is any definite reference to Hardy having read Goethe.
Thanks - in advance
Jacky
jacky@wilkibob.me.uk
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From: gavinailes@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: Hardy and Goethe
Date: May 22, 2005 3:29:41 PM PDT
According to Robert Gittings in his biography, 'Young Thomas Hardy', Horace Moule gave Hardy a copy of Goethe's 'Faust'. This is mentioned in the chapter on religion (ch. 5) but has no other comment.
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Resent-From: HARDY-L@csusm.edu
From: hardycor@owl.csusm.edu
Subject: Re: Hardy and Goethe
Date: May 22, 2005 4:19:51 PM PDT
Jackie, Hardy speaks of reading Goethe in the LIFE, and there are numerous
quotes from his works in the *Literary Notebooks.* He aso refers to
Marlowe in both places. I haven't had a chance to check these all out, but
I would be extremely surprised if Hardy were not familiar with both
author's works on Faust.
All the Best,
Betty
hardycor@owl.csusm.edu
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From: segr@segr-music.net
Subject: RE: Hardy and Goethe
Date: May 22, 2005 4:48:11 PM PDT
Re Jacqueline's last query.
Intriguing idea to try to link Troy with either Dr Faustus
or Mephistopheles! Not sure how one would choose between them.
Thinking of what to suggest for thesis material,
I wonder just how severe Hardy was in suggesting EVIL things about Troy.
Thomas must have witnessed some bawdy goings-on when fiddling tunes at
his father's side. So nothing unusually devillish about the story unlike
in Goethe's tale.
Looking for signs of the devil in FFMC?
I recall Terence Stamp's famous
role as Troy in the film version of FFMC.
Of the episodes that were somewhat at variance
with the published text of Hardy's novel (though perhaps not with the
spirit)
One may recall Mr Stamp's lusty
rendering of "The Jolly Tinker"(splendid rustic tune!-Irish no doubt)
at the harvest-home celebrations in the great barn. If I
managed to follow the words he sang in the last verse it was
Mephisto, not Troy, who was expected to oblige the
ladies of the song(all of them!) although clearly 'twas to be
a task close to the soldier's heart.
But a parallel with "Faust" was not being deliberately hinted at there.
Best regards
Roy.
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From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu
Subject: Re: Hardy and Goethe
Date: May 22, 2005 6:49:54 PM PDT
Jackie --
According to Purdy and Millgate Hardy owned the Bohn's Standard Library edn. of Goethe's novels and tales (London, 1875).
for more details. You might also like to check TH's correspondence with Sir George Douglas who wrote on Goethe -- TH was interested in this.
Nothing in the letters on Marlowe however.
Good Luck!
Best
Rosemarie
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From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu
Subject: Re: Hardy and Goethe
Date: May 22, 2005 7:06:39 PM PDT
Oops-- I seem to have cut a chunk from my message, accidentally. It should have read,
Try Millgate's Online Hardy Library for more details on his Goethe Collection.
For Hardy's overtly Mephistophelian figure, try Diggory Venn. The consistency in characterisation, from literal detailing and configuration to extended metaphors in RN are poetically accomplished. Though there are, to my mind, touches of Gide in the rendering.
Cheers
Rosemarie
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From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk
Subject: RE: Hardy and Goethe
Date: May 23, 2005 1:03:40 AM PDT
I thought you might be interested in the similarities between the two that I
have discovered - with acknowledgement to J. O. Bailey in JSTOR.
As some of you may know I am doing my diss on the carnivalesque and the
grotesque in FFMC, and I have also discovered similarities between the
Wildman in the medieval Nuremburg carnival, and, of course, the Lord of
Misrule. I was amazed, however, at how many similarities there are between
Troy and Mephistopheles. On the theme of devils and Troy, Troy may also be
perceived as the other of Gabriel, and thus, by inference, the other of the
Archangel Gabriel - Lucifer, and there appears to me to be a close
interconnection, especially in the storm sequence, between fallen angels
'phosphorescent wings' and light, the other aspect of Lucifer, and once
again there is a parallel in that Troy first encounters Bathsheba in
darkness and he then opens the dark lantern, the light of which throws up
grotesque, diabolic shadows.
There are many similarities between the Mephistopheles of Goethe's Faust and
Troy: both wear the colour scarlet, Mephistopheles in his red vest and Troy
in his soldier's scarlet jacket; both are portrayed as gamblers, Troy almost
bringing Bathsheba to penury in his pursuit of backing horses; both are
depicted as well-educated travellers, troy as 'a bright-taking lad' p.100
who 'learnt all languages [. . .]got so far that he could take down Chinese
in shorthand' p. 144-5. Furthermore, and both are connected with the black
hounds of hell, Mephistopheles appearing as a black hound, and Boldwood
bestowing that name on Troy p. 206. during their argument after Troy's
marriage to Bathsheba, and both make young girls pregnant. Finally both
represent 'the spirit of denial and mockery'. and are, in fact, hypnotic
figures who manipulate the unwary in a much more sinister fashion than the
playful devils of carnival.
I am aware that Troy may equally be perceived as a 'normal' member of
society, but am equally extremely interested in the biblical/ diabolical
significance that Hardy brings to his novel.
Jacky
jacky@wilkibob.me.uk
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From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk
Subject: RE: Hardy and Goethe
Date: May 23, 2005 1:35:25 AM PDT
That was very churlish of me, in my excitement to discuss the devilish
associations with Troy I forgot to thank you for your references - thank
you, one and all. I must be having a senior moment - the Life and Works is
on the shelf in front of me but I had not noticed Goethe in it! By the way,
further to the devilish signifiers with Troy - his sword may also be
perceived as a fiery brand - Lucifer/light. There are also numerous
references to the serpent - Satan - in connection with Troy, and
particularly in the storm sequence and the sword exercise. There is also
there the suggestion of Eve and the Garden of Eden - Bathsheba leaving the
scene 'she felt like one who had sinned a great sin.'
Jacky
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From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu
Subject: RE: Hardy and Goethe
Date: May 23, 2005 3:13:42 AM PDT
This is fascinating, Jackie!
I am curious to know, though, how you get round the fact that it is, of the males in this scene, Gabriel's shadow which is cast upon the stormy heavens in huge, grotesque forms (Troy is inside, drinking, at this point). As befits Gabriel's characterisation, this grotesquerie links with those scenes where he is aligned, by the narrator (at least twice, as far as I recall) with Milton's Satan -- notably in his espials. I suppose, too, that if one were to be comprehensive about lightness and darkness in this novel, the scene where Bathsheba is tending the sick cow, overseen by the spying Gabriel/"Satan" from the outer darkness of night, recognition occurs ( she is .strange to him at this time), as the lamplight reveals her face when she throws back her cowl. There is a parallel scene where Bathsheba, toward the end, sees him (from outer darkness) through his window, in the light of his room reading (I think he's reading:: is he reading the bible, I wonder - that would be interesting), at a point of recognition of strangeness, on her part, when she believes he is about to become estranged from her forever.
Troy, as you say, is highly educated and the only character in the novel to share his author's knowledge of books and things cultural. As you can see, (Cancelled Words) Hardy had trouble with Troy's characterisation -- my feeling is that he had to force it around, possibly identifying too closely with the the latent scholar in Troy which tended to lead TH adrift at times, in order to shape him for the "baddie" role and a dramatic denouement for the serial. On another tack, it is Boldwood who refers to Troy as a hound from hell (which reveals his learning to some extent) -- where, I wonder, does he figure (likewise Gabriel) - in your general argument on diabolism?
A red herring here, perhaps, but another character who seduces young girls, Alec in Tess, has a close encounter with his author also! The barn dance scene (which precedes Alec's seduction of Tess) is taken almost word for word from a fragment in TH's own account of a barn dance/harvest supper in his youth.: "There he wearily waited ...until three in the morning, having eaten and drunk nothing since one o'clock on the previous day (Life and Work, 25). This may align him, by artistic transference, more closely with Tess than with Alec but the scene-setting triggers an interesting association of ideas -- or perhaps I should say "cousinship" if we are to put any store by the Lois Deacon-Tryphena story.
Thank you Jacky for so generously sharing you thoughts with us. I do hope you'll continue to keep us posted!
All best,
Rosemarie
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From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk
Subject: RE: Hardy and Goethe
Date: May 23, 2005 4:01:32 AM PDT
I do not see the storm scene and the dance in the barn as two unrelated events. I see the storm sequence as a mirror of what is happening in the barn - in the barn, it is Troy who is the leader of the dance and in the storm it is the lightning. The grotesqueness of one is reflected in the other, and, keeping on the tack of Troy as a diabolic figure who is leading the dance, outside the storm, or at any rate the action of the lightning, is referred to as a dance of death - a medieval dance which had diabolic connections. Just as Gabriel is an observer to the dance of death in the barn - the dance signifying the commencement of the death of Bathsheba's marriage to Troy - so he is the observer of the dance of death in the storm. I believe Troy is always the diabolic instigator, just as he is the Lord of Misrule, in some respects these being one and the same. To me Gabriel is never really sinister as Troy is, he is always the unifier, the Shepherd King, the lover f the biblical Bathsheba, at one with nature rather than in violent opposition to it. To me, when the gurgoyle spews its water on Fanny's grave - this is the representation of the devil out-devilling the other representation, Troy, it is in this that the irony lies.
Jacky
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From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk
Subject: RE: Hardy and Goethe
Date: May 23, 2005 4:08:50 AM PDT
By the way, to me, Bathsheba's actions of constantly removing veils and headgear - as in the cloak in the cowshed, and the heavy Shetland veil at the fire of the ricks, and in the bee-hiving sequence are all reminiscent of eighteenth century masquerade in novels such as Tom Jones and Pamela , this is particularly applicable in the sequence where Bathsheba meets Troy, the whole sequence, and particularly the almost ritualised exchange when they speak 'Are you a woman?' 'I am a man' reflect closely masquerade rituals (see Terry Castle's book) - and, of course, masking and masquerade was yet another aspect of carnival.
Jacky
p.s. - You've really got me going now!!!!
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From: segr@segr-music.net
Subject: RE: Hardy and Goethe
Date: May 23, 2005 5:07:26 AM PDT
This is all quite entertaining: imaginative if not very convincing.
Surely Hardy, unlike Goethe, was writing about a complex human situation without any need
to endow his characters with celestial or diabolic significance. I do not see much point in
these flights of fancy although I have to admit: if this is what literary criticism is supposed to be about
we will surely never agree in reaching a final (and valid?)
assessment of the author's original aims in putting together a good read.
Still, it sells books, I suppose. Actually some of these suggested interpretations could perhaps be made use of
in a new adaptation of Hardy's story entitled "Far from the Hardy Mind"
What about it, Jackie?
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From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk
Subject: RE: Hardy and Goethe
Date: May 23, 2005 5:30:09 AM PDT
According to my interpretation of literary criticism no interpretation of a book is invalid if you can support your argument with evidence from the book, which I think I have done. All writers are influenced by the sources they have read or experienced and their books reflect this. I could perhaps draw your attention to Ramon Saldivar's book Figural Language in the Novel in support of my argument, referring particularly to the 'reception theory' I quote:
'The reader, as much as any character, contributes to the shaping of the novel's fictive world through his (or in my case 'her') interpretative actions, which catalyze the immanent potential of the text to be understood.' p. 155
. Just as you indicate that I may have no evidence to support my theory on FFMC, I could argue that you have no evidence that Hardy's work was not influenced by Goethe.
Jacky
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From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu
Subject: RE: Hardy and Goethe
Date: May 23, 2005 6:14:36 AM PDT
I like your PS -- !
I'm getting your drift -- thanks.
(By the way, what do you make of Troy's donning her gear in the bee-hiving scene? "Yes, I must put on the veil" says he! )
I suppose my primary concern is that despite TH's attempts to round off his novels with conventional crises of "good" versus" bad" I don't feel, along with many readers, that his characters are unambiguously black and white. The external correlatives are beautifully done -almost matchless in the storm scene -- and Gabriel comes through successfully, as he does in most instances where he is the controller (manipulative, controlling behaviours are strong in him --again, TH had some difficulty with this characterisation, also, and Oak almost disappears altogether at the centre of the novel). But, as the narrator emphasises, he is a salt-and-pepper (gray) character with many flaws. The Good Shepherd stereotyping tends to oversimplify his complexity, I think.
But I shall desist and attend to my own veils and cowsheds --
Good Luck!
Besties,
Rosemarie
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From: hardycor@owl.csusm.edu
Subject: RE: Hardy and Goethe
Date: May 23, 2005 6:53:27 AM PDT
You wrote: the Life and Works is on the shelf in front of me but I had not noticed
Goethe in it!
Jackie, see page 212. Betty
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From: jacky@wilkibob.me.uk
Subject: RE: Hardy and Goethe
Date: May 23, 2005 6:30:04 AM PDT
In my diss the Mephistophelian aspect of Troy is only one aspect I explore. I certainly think as you state in Cancelled Words, that Hardy became increasingly fascinated by Troy. I find him a hypnotic anti-hero who must have had quite an effect on the 'country parson's daughter', he is certainly far more thrilling and 'tempting' than either Oak or Boldwood, and Hardy's clever handling as he draws out our sympathy for him is magnificent.
Jacky
That's all for now, folks!!!
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