H04075 DECEMBER 2004 DORSET DIALECT/HEATHS/BUTTERFLIES - 12/01/04 - HARDY FORUM ARCHIVES

From: schweikr@localnet.com

Subject: Perplexed

Date: November 30, 2004 11:16:05 AM PST

It's November 30, and Bill Morgan's current poetry discussion

will, of course, be replaced by a new topic for December. But

I thought it worth while to Forum members' attention to the

current topic. The poem is "The Later Autumn," and what

which I find intriguing about it is Hardy's use of words--e.g.,

"toadsmeal"--which, in the phrase of one responder, "stretch

the readers." On that topic, there are illuminating comments

by Patrick Roper, Philip Allingham, and Jim Rogers, with

reference, also, to Trevor Johnson's edition of a selection of

Hardy's poems.

But the questions addressed there open, it seems to me, a

larger question. I've just been rereading *Under the Greenwood

Tree* and have been astounded at how many times I had to

consult the editor's notes to construe dialect words or phrases,

even though I know Hardy's works pretty well. My constant

recourse to editor's glosses has become for me a familiar pattern.

They occur with great frequency in Hardy's prose and poetry--

not to mention references to landscape features which, for most

of his original readers, would certainly have been far more obscure.

What to make of that? Why so many words readers would not

know? Why so many references to locations readers would not

have any knowledge of? What, for example, would a Londoner

make of "Wessex Heights"?

And is Hardy's use of such references plausibly relatable to

the consciously difficult language of "modernist" writers?

Perplexedly,

Bob Schweik

 

 

 

Robert Schweik

University Distinguished Teaching Professor Emeritus

Department of English

State University of New York

Fredonia, NY 14063

USA

schweik@fredonia.edu

schweikr@localnet.com

==========

From: hardycor@owl.csusm.edu

Subject: Re: Perplexed

Date: November 30, 2004 2:16:58 PM PST

I was a little surprised that neither of the two trusty sources I usually

turn to for glossing dialect words included the word "toadsmeal." I'm

referring to Ralph Elliott's _Thomas Hardy's English_ and F.B. Pinion's

_A Thomas Harddy Dictionary_. I think that those of us not born and raised

in the British Isles tend to have more of a problem with certain terms,

especially those referring to landscape. I remember one American professor

saying he didn't know the difference between a heath and a moor. Come to

think of it, is there a difference?

Betty

==========

From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: Re: Perplexed

Date: November 30, 2004 12:49:52 PM PST

I'd be very interested, Bob, to know some of the terms in UGT which are obscure -- can you give us a few?

We did have, on the Forum, a question about landscape terms in Hardy --way back (I think!) -- didn't someone ask what a copse was or what a coppice is?

I haven't visited the poem you mention or, for that matter the POTM, recently, so I don't know the context of "toadsmeal." I recall though, that in my childhood "toadsmeat" was not infrequently hurled at enemies in the playground (it's another word for toadstool) while, in botany classes, we were expected to be familiar with wolds, wealds, bosky glades and all -- (the last vestiges of a Victorian education?).

A visiting Australian asked me yesterday to explain the difference between a nerd, a dweeb and a dork?

(phew! Now that was "modernist" moment!)

Cheers,

Rosemarie

(PS "Wessex Heights"? -- could be those magic mushrooms from the New Forest, again! )

==========

From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: Re: Perplexed

Date: November 30, 2004 3:40:01 PM PST

This is a bit primitive (as an answer), Betty, because there are geological factors that come into play but generally heaths are lowland and moors are heaths on high ground. Hardy's Egdon --aside from the barrows -- are more or less sea-level and if my memory serves me right I think the area is basically sea-bed from which the water has retreated over time. Very poor soil is characteristic of both heath and moor but because humanity has not interfered with nature, in the main (the soil not being favourable to crops or grazing), heathlands have become rich wildlife reserves. Egdon for example, is the home of the rare Dorset blue butterfly -- exquisitely beautiful, tiny, and vivid!

I'm sure Patrick Roper will now pounce on me for missing out something vital!

Cheers,

Rosemarie

==========

From: schweikr@localnet.com

Subject: Re: Perplexed

Date: November 30, 2004 7:07:04 PM PST

n response to Rosemarie's posting below:

My point--to make clear the context of this message--was that

I was surprised on rereading *Under the Greenwood Tree* to

find how many words I needed to look to the editor's gloss to

be sure I understood. I wondered, then, about contemporaries

reading that novel--say, a Victorian Londoner--who (presumably) would

not be familiar with Hardy's use of Dorset dialect and geography.

Such readers might have been as perplexed by them as I have

been, for Hardy certainly uses both dialect words and references

to places whose geography (for, say, a Londoner) would

be not at all clear.

Rosemarie Morgan asks for some examples. I give them below in a

sentence context, but with no definitions. All of them perplexed

me. How many of them are immediately clear to the Forum members? All

citations are from the James Gibson edition of *Under the Greenwood

Tree*, London, J.M. Dent, 1996. I might here add one further

complication. How many of the examples I cite were, in fact, not

Dorset dialect but common British slang recognizable to any

(say) London reader? So far as I know, none. But I may be wrong.

p. 13, "'Neighbours, there time enough to drink a sight of drink now

afore bedtime?' said Mail."

p. 15. "Being now occupied in bending over a hogshead that stood in

the pantry ready horsed for the process of broaching . . . ."

p. 17. "The husbird of a feller Sam Lawson . . . ."

p. 21. "'If so be I hadn't been as scatterbrained and thirtingill as a

chiel . . . ."

p. 24. "At that very moment up comes John Woodward, weeping

and teaving . . . ."

p. 28. "your reed man is a dab at stirring ye . . . ."

p. 48. "If I strip by myself and not necessary, 'tis rather

pot-housey I own . . . .

The list could, of course, go on--and on--and on. Hardy's fiction and

poetry is, of course, full of such language, as well, too, as references

to places partly imaginary that give a reader pause and some sense of

disorientation. In any case, for all of the above examples I felt obliged

to turn to the editor's notes to make sure I understood what was said.

My main question, then, is this: What function did such possibly perplexing

uses of dialect and geographical references serve in Hardy's

writings for his Victorian readers? What, in short, are the uses

of possibly perplexing one's audience?

Just a sub-note to the questions above. Hardy was, of course,

thoroughly familiar with Barnes's poetry. And, obviously, he decided

not to take the course of that daunting simulation of Dorset dialect

that Barnes took. But why, then, the choice of some of the perplexing

language I've illustrated above?

Bob Schweik

==========

From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: Re: Perplexed

Date: December 1, 2004 6:11:19 AM PST

Thanks Bob -

Yes-- I took your meaning -- I was being rather lighthearted about it coming, as I do, from an English speaking nation "divided" (with American) "by a common language."

Seriously -- I'm not sure that Hardy's contemporary readers would have had inordinate trouble with his lingo. If they had, wouldn't his editors asked him to tone it down? Instead they reiterated the complaint that Hardy's rustics sound too educated. Also, wouldn't contemporary critics have issued the same complaint? I haven't gone through the Gerber-Davis Bibli with a toothcomb but I would hazard a guess that complaints about lingo aren't to the fore ( actually, I don't recall any, and I've just finished editing several hundred entries) .

Several of the words you cite seem self-explanatory; "A sight of drink" is surely ironic -- a way of saying that just a glimpse of a drink would be good! Something that is "horsed" used to mean something that is well-shod, bridled and ready to go -- but there may be other nuances -- (there are usually regional variations). A "husbird" (recently on the Forum) is a curse --stemming from a "whore's bird." I don't know "thirtingill" but the context suggests that it means something like simpleminded. The "thirt" prefix (which you have used occasionally yourself, with your liking for "thirtover", comes I guess from the number thirteen connoting an oddity). "Teaving" I don't know but it looks like a variant of "tearing" (as in tearing your hair). "Dab" is still used as in being a "dab hand" at something. "Pot-housey" -- (lovely!) is new to me. What was the gloss on that one? Wait a minute -- Tim' Dolin's first edition of UGT will have it -- ah! it means vulgar.

Re Hardy & Barnes: Hardy did take great care with his dialect words and revised them several times over (see my Appendix to *Cancelled Words* ). I think modern readers may have greater difficulty -- if all the Dialect Glossaries in recent editions are anything to go by -- than did Victorians.

It's a very interesting topic-- thank you Bob for raising it. Can we have some feedback from other readers?

Cheers,

Rosemarie

==========

From: tomlessup@hotmail.com

Subject: Re: Perplexed

Date: December 1, 2004 7:10:09 AM PST

I don't think a general reader (as opposed to a scholar) will always worry

about exactly what a dialect word means. For example, scatterbrained in the

phrase "scatterbrained and thirtingill" is surely enough of a clue to

suggest the sort of person being talked of, and thirtingill - whatever it

means! - just rounds out the impression of someone simple and unfortunate.

Clearly too Sam Lawson is not a nice feller, an impression so sharply

conveyed by the hissed ending of the first syllable of "husbird" and the

sharp hard sound of the second syllable that the exact meaning is, again,

unimportant - the echo of hussy and gaolbird does the work. Ditto teaving.

whose echoes of grieving and tearing are sufficiently onomatopoeic to carry

the reader onwards.

Like "dab", "sight" in "a sight of" or "a sight" is still in colloquial use,

and not only in the westcountry. It means "much, very" "or a lot [of]".

(Often reinforced, as in "He's a damn sight better for her than her last

husband was.") I don't think many of Hardy's contemporary readers would

have had a problem with that. Similarly, wherever they were in the

country, they would almost certainly have still been familiar with the word

pot-house, even if they'd never been in one, so would have easily equated

"pot-housey" with vulgar. A horsed hogshead would almost certainly be a

barrel cradled on its side in an X-shaped trestle, ready for tapping -

perhaps not as obvious to the educated London reader, but almost certainly a

familiar sight (or a sight familiar sight) to readers in town or country who

had even been in a tavern (or pot-house!) or at a Christmas etc party (I can

remember it from an Irish wake in North London in the 60s. In fact, it's

about all I can remember from that night....)

Regards

Tom Lessup

tomlessup@hotmail.com

==========

From: kgwilson@uottawa.ca

Subject: Re: Perplexed re "sight"

Date: December 1, 2004 7:48:23 AM PST

"A sight of" is still contemporary usage (at least in Britain: I hadn't

registered before that it wasn't in North America), as in formulations like " x

would be a sight more use than y" or "y is a sight too good for z." It's often

used in exclamatory form, as in "a damned sight too big for his boots." Thus a

sight of drink would be "a considerable quantity," rather than just a glimpse,

and surely it would have little to do with actual vision?

Isn't this phrasing used on this side of the Atlantic?

All the best,

Keith

Keith Wilson

Professor of English/President, Association of Canadian College and University

Teachers of English

University of Ottawa

70 Laurier Avenue East (Room 313)

Ottawa, Ontario

CANADA K1N 6N5

Tel: (613) 562-5800, Ext. 1160

Fax: (613) 562-5990

e-mail: kgwilson@uottawa.ca

==========

From: wwmorgan@ilstu.edu

Subject: Re: Perplexed re "sight"

Date: December 1, 2004 8:03:39 AM PST

Yes, it certainly is--at least in the South where I come from originally.

Bill

==========

From: Charles.Anesi@wellsfargo.com

Subject: RE: Perplexed re "sight"

Date: December 1, 2004 8:25:24 AM PST

Yes, where I grew up (southern Michigan) "sight of" is still in use.

Likewise other examples cited by Prof. Schweik and other Hardyisms as well.

Interestingly, Michigan's Washtenaw County was settled in part by a group of

New Englanders who migrated there in the 1830's from Connecticut via upstate

New York. Many of these settlers descended from a group of Separatists

originally from Dorset, Somerset, and Devon; these religious maniacs

arrived in Massachusetts on the ship 'Mary and John' in 1630, and trekked to

Connecticut five years later, where they named their settlement Dorchester

(later renamed Windsor). My mother came from this stock and seldom required

a gloss when reading Hardy.

Chuck Anesi

Charles.Anesi@wellsfargo.com

office 480-575-3478

cell 612-940-3345

 

==========

From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: Re: Perplexed re "sight"

Date: December 1, 2004 8:48:37 AM PST

Thanks Keith -- I hadn't read it like that but of course -- now you point it out (as did another contributor) it makes a darned sight better sense than my explanation. I suppose if we were to be grammarians about it we would call it a speech marker or intensifier.

Cheers,

Rosemarie

==========

From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: RE: Perplexed re "sight"

Date: December 1, 2004 9:07:52 AM PST

This is fascinating -- ! I've always been aware, since the first day of moving to the US, that Southerners and Afro-Americans in particular had less of a problem understanding my spoken English (and vice versa) than did and do North-Easterners (this awareness led to my publishing an article on Toni Morrison and Hardy). But Michigan! This I would never have suspected.

Thank you, Chuck!

Best,

Rosemarie

==========

From: schweikr@localnet.com

Subject: Re: Perplexed

Date: December 1, 2004 9:46:18 AM PST

By my count, Rosemarie--deliberately speaking off the top of her head--

got right three out of the seven examples I cited--three better than I!

But it is, it seems to me, curious that, as Rosemarie remarks below,

there is so little comment by contemporary critics on Hardy's use of

such dialect in his novels.

In any case, one advantage of reading Hardy is that some of the dialect

words you learn that way can be useful. When Joanne sends me out

to the supermarket to get something--and often I can't find it--I explain to

the supermarket staff member who helps me that "after all, I'm just a

poor gawkhammer husband." Now I can also say I'm no dab at locating

radicchio--and probably at spelling it, too.

Bob Schweik

==========

From: PatriciaKelley@westat.com

Subject: RE: Perplexed re "sight"

Date: December 1, 2004 10:11:23 AM PST

This has indeed been a fascinating thread.

Rosemarie, I'm an African-American Hardy fan (although I'm far from being

well versed as many of you are here). For some reason, I never had questions

about Hardy's use of language. Somehow, I got it. My family, while not

formally educated, always spoke the "King's English" in the home, not a

"Negro dialect" that we were nevertheless familiar with. I grew up in one of

the poorest sections of Washington, D.C. and was often teased for "speaking

white."

On a related sidebar, the very reason I believe I became a fan of Hardy is

that he seemed to understand exactly what my inner thoughts and dreams were

about going to college and becoming a scholar.

When Jude's aunt tells him that Christminster "...is a place much too good

for you ever to have much to do with, poor boy, I'm a-thinking" it struck a

chord at the soul level. Here I was an inner city kid with no connections,

no money, etc., definitely the wrong color/class, so Jude's initial

struggles felt identical.

I'm in my 40s now and guess I'm technically one of the first of the

"affirmative action babies" who was able to get to "Christminster" after

all.

Rosemarie, I'd love to hear what inspired you to pursue the Morrison/Hardy

connection and am very interested in reading the article.

While I don't participate on a regular basis, I am very much enjoying this

list. I continue to learn much from all of you, and especially enjoy the

unpredictability of the subjects generated. Thanks for the stimulation and

the laughs!

Patty

==========

From: Charles.Anesi@wellsfargo.com

Subject: RE: Perplexed re "sight"

Date: December 1, 2004 10:14:12 AM PST

The "Dorset Pilgrims" were somewhat of an anomaly. The 'Mary and John'

sailed separately from the other eleven ships of the Winthrop Fleet, which

carried passengers almost exclusively from East Anglia. More information

can be found at http://www.maryandjohn1630.com/passengerlist.html

Chuck Anesi

Charles.Anesi@wellsfargo.com

office 480-575-3478

cell 612-940-3345

==========

From: patrick@prassociates.co.uk

Subject: RE: Perplexed

Date: December 31, 2004 10:30:24 AM PST

Rosemary Morgan said:

This is a bit primitive (as an answer), Betty, because there are

geological factors that come into play but generally heaths are

lowland and

moors are heaths on high ground. Hardy's Egdon --aside from the

barrows --

are more or less sea-level and if my memory serves me right I think the

area is basically sea-bed from which the water has retreated over time.

Very poor soil is characteristic of both heath and moor but because

humanity has not interfered with nature, in the main (the soil not being

favourable to crops or grazing), heathlands have become rich wildlife

reserves. Egdon for example, is the home of the rare Dorset blue

butterfly

-- exquisitely beautiful, tiny, and vivid!

I'm sure Patrick Roper will now pounce on me for missing out

something vital!

I am much too old and large to pounce anywhere and, I hope, too well brought

up to do such a rhing to Rosemary!

Yes, broadly speaking heaths are lowland heathery places and moors the same

on the uplands. But beware, wet, rushy lowland fields are sometimes called

'moors'. Heaths only occur on acidic soils and these often overlie the

sandstones that were laid down in sea beds millions of years ago, but

heathland plants will grow in Britain wherever the soil is right and the

habitat open.

These heathery places, whether upland or lowland, were almost all created by

centuries of overgrazing (which has, of course, made the soil poor) and if

they are not 'managed' as they used to be they quickly revert to scrub then

woodland. They are not, as Hardy tends to evoke them, unchanging, eternal

landscapes - they just give that impression.

Hardy was witnessing the end of hundreds of years of agriculture when,

broadly speaking, animals were grazed, particularly in winter, on the common

land (or 'the waste' as it was often known). Various plants - bracken,

furze, heather etc. - were also harvested and turf-cutting was a common

practice. This was the cutting out of slabs of heathery vegetation and

drying them for winter fuel, like peat.

The blue heathland butterfly is the silver-studded blue, Plebejus argus,

whose caterpillars feed on heather. It is fairly widespread, but declining,

in southern England. There is also a chalk grassland subspecies of the same

butterfly now confined in UK to a quarry on the Isle of Portland.

The 'Dorset blue' has never, so far as I know, been the name of any British

butterfly, though I have a feeling that TH refers to such a creature

somewhere in his writings. He perhaps meant the mazarine blue, Cyaniris

semiargus. This was regularly caught by the entomologist J C Dale on the

chalk downs near Glanvilles Wooton in Dorset between 1808 and 1841. It is

thought to have been a resident species in one or two other places in

England and Wales but died out towards the end of the 19th century and has

only occasionally been recorded as a rare vagrant since. Its caterpillars

are said to have fed mainly on red clover in England, and this is not a

heathland plant.

As those of you who have read this far will by now be aware, I can get very

boring on heathlands and their flora and fauna, so I'll shut up.

Patrick Roper

==========

From: hardycor@owl.csusm.edu

Subject: RE: Perplexed

Date: December 1, 2004 11:53:44 AM PST

Not boring in the least Patrick! Thank you and Rosemarie both for

explaining The differences between a moor and heath.. Moors are to the

Brontes what heaths are to Hardy it would seem.

Betty

==========

 

From: Jcphardysoc@aol.com

Subject: Re: Perplexed

Date: December 1, 2004 1:27:14 PM PST

Somerset's low-lying areas are variously known as levels or moors e.g. Sedgemoor mentioned in 'A Trampwoman's Tragedy' . These are much closer to sea level and flatter than Dorset's lowland heaths (which are quite hilly in places), and often flood in the winter, despite drainage works (first begun in Roman times) and regular pumping. The Somerset Levels do not have the heathy vegetation (heather, furse/gorse, bracken, rough grass) typical of both lowland heathland or the higher moors. As a native of the New Forest area of Hampshire, I am very familiar with lowland heath - the Forest is by no means all woodland and much resembles Hardy's Egdon Heath complete with barrows (Bronze Age burial mounds).

This underlines the point that not all moors are uplands or even heathy, though of course Exmoor and Dartmoor in the West Country are both upland moors and seemingly never referred to as heaths, despite their heath-like vegetation.

A hamlet in my Somerset parish is called Creech Heathfield and there's a Monkton Heathfield near by. These names imply secondary settlements reclaimed from manorial waste, rather like Wildeve's Patch inThe Return of the Native.

Best wishes

John Pentney

==========

From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: RE: Perplexed

Date: December 1, 2004 6:35:17 PM PST

Aha!

I told you ...

Besties

Rosemarie

(seriously, thanks for the geological pouncing, Patrick) --

___________________

> I'm sure Patrick Roper will now pounce on me for missing out

> something vital!

==========

From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: Re: Perplexed

Date: December 1, 2004 7:26:29 PM PST

Are Somerset's "Levels" akin to Dorset's "Watermeadows"?

Hardy's heath (as t'were) is flanked by watermeadows, notably at Wareham (Anglebury) which are flooded annually (hence the causeway). Wareham was once a port of major importance before the waters retreated from the Isle of Purbeck (Swanage/Knollsea) and its heathlands. Herons are a delightful feature of the watermeadows as are the wild irises which bloom in the spring: the soil is fertile & supports grazing cattle in the summer unlike the heathlands which cannot even support sheep. A curiosity of "Hardy's" heathland is that water still runs beneath it causing the subsoil (mostly sand) to erode which in turns causes a sudden sinkage of topsoil and those concavities (bowls) Hardy mentions in his descriptions of Egdon.

Cheers,

Rosemarie

==========

From: harrybatt@mn.rr.com

Subject: Re: Perplexed

Date: December 1, 2004 8:23:23 PM PST

Hello! Well, a word from my artist friend Cynthia at Weymouth. She sez

that heaths are flush with a bounty of plants and flowers while the Bronte

moor ilk are only covered with dreary grass. Cynthis is an artist. I can't

argue with her perception.

john bridell,

Minneapolis, Mn

 

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From: ann.whitlock282@btinternet.com

Subject: Re: Perplexed

Date: December 1, 2004 10:24:34 PM PST

In response to Rosemarie's call for feedback from other readers, the

following comment from Bob Schweik's original email set me thinking:

I was surprised on rereading *Under the Greenwood Tree* to

find how many words I needed to look to the editor's gloss to

be sure I understood. I wondered, then, about contemporaries

reading that novel--say, a Victorian Londoner--who (presumably) would

not be familiar with Hardy's use of Dorset dialect and geography.

Such readers might have been as perplexed by them as I have

been, for Hardy certainly uses both dialect words and references

to places whose geography (for, say, a Londoner) would

be not at all clear.

I remember a particular A Level English Literature sixth form class, some

years ago, who were studying The Return of the Native in a Derbyshire

comprehensive school. To my surprise they were not put off by the dialect -

just the opposite, it led to a comparative discussion of vernacular language

and terms of expression in Derbyshire, and the way language (and accent too)

changed among families who moved up the social scale. It was also

interesting to listen to two Asian students giving indications of matches

with words in Hindi and Punjabi.

Much more of an irritant to the class was the need on numerous occasions to

look up both Biblical and classical references, which for them were obscure.

They were a group of bright students who had not had the opportunity to

study either the classics or the Bible beyond primary school, and certainly

knew no Latin or Greek. They complained that the frequent need to listen to

explanations or check the notes on these references destroyed the flow of

the narrative, and lessened their involvement in the lives of the

characters. This led to a weariness with their study of the novel for many,

and for a few, to an aversion to reading Hardy from then on.

My further reflection on the examples quoted in 'Perplexed' and the value,

or otherwise, of Hardy's use of dialect, was that this was significant in

the preservation of words which had almost disappeared from common usage, as

well as enlivening the dialogue. His use of obscure local terms has ensured

the survival of fragments of an expressive vocabulary that once might have

been used more widely in Dorset society than among the rustic characters in

his novels.

What intrigued me in looking at the words in question were the echoes of

their wider history and the sources from which they came, and whether or not

Hardy might have been aware of any such histories.

When I explored the history of the word 'chiel', I discovered among

others, the following reference:

It may be here asked what is the exact meaning of the word Cumro? The true

meaning of the word is a youth. It is connected with a Sanskrit word,

signifying a youth, and likewise a prince. It is surprising how similar in

meaning the names of several nations are: Cumro, a youth; Gael, a hero;

Romany chal, son of Rome, lad of Rome. Romany chi, daughter of Rome, girl of

Rome. Chal, chiel, child, the Russian cheloviek, a man, and the Sanskrit

Jana, to be born, are all kindred words.

George Borrow Wild Wales Chapter CIX

I have to confess that 'chiel' is the only word I am familiar with, as I

have heard it used in Irish speech. I now have the appetite to know more

about the others, and have stopped doing what I should be doing to indulge

myself with this fascinating topic!

Ann Whitlock

==========

From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: Re: Perplexed

Date: December 2, 2004 5:45:12 AM PST

Yes-- Ann -- my experience tallies with yours regarding biblical allusions. This, however, has not deterred Japanese students from elevating Hardy to Number One literary genius in Western culture -- or so I was told when teaching in Osaka -- but we did spend most of our glossary time with the Testaments. I was also begged, by students and professors alike, in Japan, to ask all editors to provide comprehensive glossaries to Hardy's biblical allusions --even to such rudimentary words as "Amen."

Victorians, who read the bible not only out of duty but for cultural enjoyment and attended public readings of same (not to mention studies in school & regular church attendance), would have been closely familiar with both Testaments. Hardy's rustics, several of whom cannot read or write, gain their familiarity from Sunday worship, the local incumbent, and the occasional field preacher such as Alec d'Urberville (!). No doubt Victorians alluding to Ephraim and Hosea would do so with a sobriety & understanding that Joseph Poorgrass does not possess -- with or without his "multiplying eye." Unfortunately modern readers miss out on much of the humour Victorians enjoyed -- inadvertently provided by Poorgrass and other rustics. By the time you've glossed the wretched thing the humour has gone down the spout.

Cheers,

Rosemarie

==========

From: patrick@prassociates.co.uk

Subject: RE: Perplexed

Date: December 2, 2004 10:31:15 AM PST

There is some useful information on British heathlands on the Tomorrow's

Heathland Heritage website:

http://www.english-nature.org.uk/thh/

This includes a page accessible from a drop down menu describing the work

being done to conserve Egdon Heath with many references to TH.

It is worth remembering the origins of the word 'heath' and 'moor'. 'Heath'

means a heathery place but now covers only lowland heath (below 300m) and

variants like grass heath. 'Moor' is from the Old English 'mor' and meant,

essentially, rubbish land - mountain, marsh etc. Many mountains in UK are

heather-covered and the flatter bits are thus called 'moors', but many

grass-covered flat bits (low or high, wet or dry) are also moors as has

already been pointed out.

In the ecological world we use several massive tomes devoted to the National

Vegetation Classification which goes in great detail into all the complex

variations of these habitats.

While it is true to say that heaths are generally floristically richer than

moors, some northern moors do have a complex and interesting flora. The

Flow Country in northern Scotland, for example, can be studded with orchids

and other flowers among the heather and there is still plenty of heather in

the Pennines and Bronte Country, though not on the Carboniferous limestone.

Dorset, of course, has Dorset heath, Erica ciliaris, as well as ling, bell

heather and cross-leaved heath and this is a bit of a speciality.

What is worrying in all these areas is the decline of both flora and fauna.

I have a book called 'Dorset's Disappearing Heathland Flora' which covers

changes in great detail since the 1930s. This points out that there has

been a 75% loss of heathland indicator plants (41 species) in this period

and some have declined by 90% or become extinct.

So far as water meadows are concerned, these are often today equated simply

with badly drained grassland or grassland that floods from time to time.

Water meadows were, however, specifically created as a system of

labour-intensive land management in which fields were deliberately flooded

to generate rich spring grazing. The system reached its peak between 1700

and 1850 and, as far as I know, is no longer done (unless at Wareham), so

places can now only likely to be 'former water meadows'.

Patrick Roper

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From: helengibson@clara.co.uk

Subject: a Hardy quotation?

Date: December 2, 2004 11:33:26 AM PST

Thank you everyone who has sent in such interesting information about moorland and heath - I'm still not confident that if I was blindfolded and taken to one or the other I would be quite sure which it was! However, on Sunday evening some of us will be following in the footsteps of the Mellstock Quire over what remains of Egdon Heath behind Hardy's cottage - thence to Lower Bockhampton and Stinsford - led by the costumed musicians of 'The Madding Crowd' and singing the old carols from the Hardy songbooks. Mad? Yes, probably, but...

The old water meadows around Dorchester still flood in the winter and one can clearly see the ridges where the low retaining banks were made - they are a haven for swans and other wild birds.

Helen Gibson

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From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: RE: Perplexed

Date: December 3, 2004 6:18:09 AM PST

Just a few points for those who aren't familiar with the region -- Hardy's "heathcroppers" (ponies) are still a feature of the heathlands in the New Forest region where they graze and roam freely.

 

The "Dorset Blue" ? I follow Roy Morrell in speaking of them thus. In his long walks (even in his eighties his pace would exhaust his younger companions) --he would be on the look out for butterflies of all kinds. He was an avid collector. Possibly the name is a local one (as also for Hardy)?

The Wareham watermeadows flood every year from tidal activity flowing from Poole harbour into the rivers Frome and Piddle.

Cheers,

Rosemarie

 

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From: robert_goddard@hotmail.com

Subject: Dorset butterflies

Date: December 3, 2004 6:41:33 AM PST

Dear All,

I hope that this message is not too "off topic" for the list, but I thought that list members would be interested in the following page, from the Butterfly Conservation Dorset Branch website, listing some of the blue butterflies to be found in Dorset:

http://www.dorsetbutterflies.co.uk/butterflies.htm

With best wishes,

Robert Goddard

UK

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From: Rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

Subject: Re: Dorset butterflies

Date: December 3, 2004 10:15:02 AM PST

Robert this is a stunning page -- thank you so much! (what a marvellous distraction from editing bibliographies!!)

Cheers,

Rosemarie

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From: wwmorgan@ilstu.edu

Subject: Re: Dorset butterflies

Date: December 3, 2004 10:50:37 AM PST

Indeed it is a marvelous page. I've saved it to my Bookmarks--for review before my next visit to Dorset. Many thanks.

Bill

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From: patrick@prassociates.co.uk

Subject: Dorset blue

Date: December 4, 2004 7:45:41 AM PST

I have found another candidate for the Dorset blue butterfly.

The short-tailed blue, Cupido argiades, "is still occasionally referred to

as the Bloxworth Blue, after the heath in Dorset where the first British

specimens were identified."

This is from the web site of the British Butterfly Conservation Society (aka

Butterfly Conservation) who are also based in Dorset, at East Lulworth.

They work with regional branches all over the country, including the one in

Dorset drawn to our attention by Robert Goddard.

Butterfly Conservation are here:

http://www.butterfly-conservation.org/index.shtml

Dorset has, I believe, a larger number of resident butterfly species than

any other British county due to its varied habitats, favourable climate and

geographical position between south east England and the West Country.

Apart from the Bloxworth blue and the mazarine blue, another speciality is

the Lulworth skipper.

Dorset blue is also a kind of cheese, but not to be confused with Dorset

blue vinney which gained almost mythical status a few years back but is now

quite often offered for sale in specialist cheese shops. It probably became

scarce because the traditional version made from skimmed milk was "as hard

as train-wheels", and was blued by steeping mouldy horse harness in the milk

then maturing the result in lead lined containers. I suspect modern

versions are made in a rather different manner.

Patrick Roper

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From: ann.whitlock282@btinternet.com

Subject: Re: Perplexed

Date: December 5, 2004 12:30:27 AM PST

I am most grateful for the information given in Patrick's message. It has led me to a number of associated websites related to some research of mine into the myths and legends associated with Hardy's stories and novels.

I now have a number of leads which look richly rewarding.

Ann Whitlock

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