H04040 DORSET PRONUNCIATION 6/2/04 HARDY FORUM ARCHIVE
From: ? colleen@angelgloria.freeserve.co.uk
Subject: Dorset pronunciation
Date: June 2, 2004 7:00:30 AM PDT
Hello
Apologies for the fact that my first posting to the discussion group is a request for information - not only have I been extremely busy with work and my masters' dissertation, but I also feel a bit daunted by the names of so many contributors who I have previously encountered in the many critical books and essays I've been reading over the past few months. I would be grateful for any help or suggestions where to get the following information : I am intrigued by Hardy's representations of spelling mistakes - one I am looking at is `murners' in Henchard's will. What I need to find out is how `mourners' is pronounced in the Dorset dialect - does it have a `ur' sound rather than `or'? This could explain it as a phonetic spelling mistake.
Thank you
Colleen Pearson
colleen@angelgloria.freeserve.co.uk
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From: rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu
Subject: Re: Dorset pronunciation
Date: June 2, 2004 7:09:45 PM PDT
Well, I was rather hoping someone else would jump in (maybe they still will).
In his representation of dialectal forms, as used by his characters, Hardy
frequently tries to spell words as they sound (phonetically) in the local
vernacular and common parlance. Hence "soldier" is "sojer" and not "souldeear"
as in Standard English. Some words are compacted -- hence "sommat" for "some
sort" (of thing) -- and others are on their way to a metathesis (seemingly):
just as the old English "brid" is now "bird" so, in Hardy, the reverse is the
case with the disappearing vowels in "mourners." This leaves us with a sound
which is almost "mrners" (which is why I mentioned "brid") -- but "murner"
makes better visual sense I suppose. This might be how Henchard would believe
it to be spelled (this does not endear him to me, by the way, as one who
severely castigated his daughter for her non-Standard English and poor
handwriting!). Dorset "r"s are rolled; so, whereas Standard English would
pronounce "mourners" as "morners" with an unrolled "r" Dorset folk would roll
the "r" making the internal vowel sounds almost redundant.
Apologies for the rather clumsy effort!
Cheers,
Rosemarie.
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From: colleen@angelgloria.freeserve.co.uk
Subject: Re: Dorset pronunciation
Date: June 3, 2004 6:56:42 AM PDT
Thank you Rosemarie,
This makes sense - you've explained it very clearly. I have been doing my
own research, asking teachers I know to dictate the phrases to pupils in
their classes and `mourners' was misspelt quite frequently, the most common
error being `morners', but I was conscious of the effect of the
pronunciation as this research was done in Staffordshire.
Colleen
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From: patrick@prassociates.co.uk
Subject: RE: Dorset pronunciation
Date: June 4, 2004 4:42:44 AM PDT
Just to add to Rosemary's far from clumsy response, I spent part of my early
childhood in Somerset (I remember the American troops pouring through our
village one day sixty years ago in an endless stream on their way to the
Normandy landings) and I had a marked Somerset accent which I can still
produce (I think).
This is close to Dorset and I would have pronounced "mourners" with the ou
somewhere between o and u and, as Rosemary says, a rolled r. This roll is
produced by turning the tongue back and up towards the roof of the mouth.
As the tongue moves up, it tends to drag the o into a u sund. That is quite
close to what TH writes.
In this context is is perhaps worth pointing out that there were thousands
of distinguishable local accents in 19th century Britain and people could
often tell what town, or even village, folk came from by the way they spoke.
So, the idea of a Dorset accent is a sort of generalisation anyway.
The word 'summat' for 'something' was, in my recollection, widely used over
much of England and probably still is, though it is not so common nowadays.
Patrick Roper
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From: rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu
Subject: RE: Dorset pronunciation
Date: June 4, 2004 5:30:52: HARDY-L@csusm.edu
Reply-To: HARDY-L@csusm.edu
Thanks so much, Patrick! I was hoping you'd step in ... I'd never thought
of the physiological causes of the vanishing vowel: that's so interesting!
It reminds me that Hardy wrote somewhere that West Country girls have
exceptionally pretty mouths from the constant pursing of lips for the "ur"
sound. Does anyone have the actual quotation?
Your point about regional accents is well taken. But I think for an
overweening view it would be true to say that Dorset is clearly
distinguishable, even today, from say, the Severn Valley, Midlands or North
Country just as here, in the USA, Boston is distinguishable from Southern
(to detect the nuances of Eastern Massachusetts from Boston proper would
take a fine ear).
Thanks,
Rosemarie
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From: patrick@prassociates.co.uk
Subject: RE: Dorset pronunciation
Date: June 4, 2004 9:17:30 AM PDT
Rosemarie,
That is quite correct, a Dorset, or at least a West Country, accent is
readily distinguishable today, though many regional accents are changing or
disappearing. What I was getting at is that, in the past, people may well
have been able to tell whether you came from Weymouth or Dorcheser or
Shaftesbury or even Piddletrenthide simply by your accent. I know that when
I lived in the north of England years ago the older people used to tell me
that all the cotton and wool towns had their own accent, it wasn't just
Lancashire or Yorkshire.
Another phenomenon, which we probably get in Britain more than in the
States, is that people often have two accents - a broad and a not so broad,
the latter being used for outsiders. When I worked in Yorkshire a few years
back, the local staff spoke to me in a way they thought I could understand,
but it was still a typical (so I thought) Yorkshire accent. However, they
spoke much more broadly and quickly to each other making it harder for
outsiders to follow. Once they seemed confident that I could follow them,
they preferred to use broad with me too and this included many more dialect
words. I am sure the same sort of thing would have happened with at least
some of the folk in Hardy's Dorset.
Incidentally, how did TH himself speak? I imagine he would almost certainly
have had a broad Dorset accent as a child, but did he retain some or none of
it? Or switch from one way of speaking to another?
In regard to Dorset dialect, I was doing some research recently into the
song 'Linden Lea' the words of which were written by TH's friend William
Barnes. I had not read the poem before, but I thought it was delightful. I
do wonder, though, how many people can cope with the dialect if they are not
familiar with it (which is perhaps why TH did not write dialect poems):
My Orcha'd in Linden Lea
'Ithin the woodlands, flow'ry gleaded,
By the woak tree's mossy moot,
The sheenen grass-bleades, timber-sheaded,
Now do quiver under voot;
An' birds do whissle over head,
An' water's bubblen in its bed
An' there vor me the apple tree
Do lean down low in Linden Lea.
When leaves that leately wer a-springen
Now do feade 'ithin the copse,
An' painted birds do hush their zingen
Up upon the timber's tops;
An' brown-leav'd fruit's a-turnen red,
In cloudless zunsheen, over head,
Wi' fruit vor me, the apple tree
Do lean down low in Linden Lea.
Let other vo'k meake money vaster
In the air o' dark-room'd towns,
I don't dread a peevish measter;
Though noo man do heed my frowns,
I be free to goo abrode,
Or teake agean my hwomeward road
To where, vor me, the apple tree
Do lean down low in Linden Lea.
I think this is a lovely description of the mood of the countryside and pace
of life that TH was so familiar with in his 'Wessex'. And I expect he was
familiar with the poem too.
Patrick Roper
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From: rogatess@breathemail.net
Subject: Re: Dorset pronunciation
Date: June 5, 2004 1:11:51 AM PDT
It is a sad fact of life that the Dorset and indeed many Regional accents in
the South and South West of England are disappearing.
Living and working in Dorset it is the exception rather than the rule to
hear a Dorset accent.
Interestingly when talking to children in Dorset the accent one hears most
is the "Esturine(?) English" or the London/Surrey English accent so beloved
of our television programmes.
It is sad that we are losing the heritage of Regional accents and I would be
keen to support anyone who is researching and recording what is a dying
trait.
In my work I talk to many people from all over the UK (And the world) and my
purely empirical evidence suggests that the Regional accent seems to survive
more in the North of the UK, whilst the South and South West it has become
homogenised. Could anyone confirm this?
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From: J.L.Pearce@exeter.ac.uk
Subject: RE: Dorset pronunciation
Date: June 5, 2004 5:28:53 AM PDT
Hello Patrick,
this is my first post, and although it is not strictly related to the work of
Thomas Hardy, I hope that this may be of interest to you. I was brought up in
the south of Wales, and holidayed in the north. It was my experience that in
general the accent of those from the north was much deeper and quite distinct
from that in the south. I also, however, found that the south has many
variations on the Welsh accent, with the deep lilt of the valleys being quite
different to the harsher Cardiff accent. These accents do not, it seems to
me, have diminished over time, and this is perhaps due to a sense of pride
many Welsh people seem to feel in their accent and the role it plays in their
heritage. I hope this helps,
regards,
Jessica Pearce
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From: hardycor@owl.csusm.edu
Subject: RE: Linden Lea
Date: June 5, 2004 11:57:30 AM PDT
Patrick thanks so much for reminding me of that lovely song "Linden Lea."
I was taught to sing it when I was in the fifth grade back in Sydney
sixty-four years ago. I had no idea what the dialect words meant then, but
thought they were beautiful anyway. I never heard that song again over the
years until I heard a recording of it in the Dorset County Museum two years
ago. It brought back a very happy era in my childhood.
Best Wishes,
Betty
Resent 6/5/04 as this message may not have reached everybody.
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From: michael@perceptivecreation.co.uk
Subject: Re: Dorset pronunciation
Date: June 4, 2004 4:38:54 PM PDT
It's not even just a choice of broad or not so broad. I've lived in
Somerset for 16 years, and running a theatre company dedicated to south-west
writers, I have a constant concern to try and achieve precision in
regional/local accents when necessary - and avoiding at all costs Mummerset
(or a general regional south-west). .
However I come from Edinburgh and my early memories are of three strands to
the cities at least: working-class (the "broad" - and often incomprehensible
to its non-speakers), educated (where the vowel sounds in particular can be
distinguished albeit subtly - witness BBC's Radio 4, formerly Home Service,
much of which originates from Glasgow), and affected (the renowned
Morningside/ Kelvinside accents - where "sex is what you put your coal in";
equating in London terms to the Hooray Henry/ Sloane Ranger extravagancies
of some of our upper classes - reaching back to the "gels" of the Mitford
sisters' times - and beyond).
I do agree that all is evening out slowly but noticeably, due largely to
broadcasting and the global village I think. That the broad accents are
disappearing, as well as the affected versions (only Edinburgh, Glasgow and
London??), leaving a diluted range of "educated" accents, which still make
it possible to identify origins however, a minor skill I enjoy trying to
exercise from time to time. And that this March of Time has led to strong
rearguard actions - with renewed interest in learning Welsh and Gaelic in
particular (OK languages rather than accents).
Best wishes
Michael Barry
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From: rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu
Subject: Re: Dorset pronunciation
Date: June 5, 2004 7:00:53 PM PDT
To return to Hardy, what do folks think of Garrison Keillor's description
of the nineteenth-century Dorset patois as a "form of German."
Equally intriguing, for serious dialect researchers, there is a community
in rural Holland which speaks "Frisian" -- an ancient language traced back
to the Celtic diaspora: "Frisian" still possesses words and phrases once
common in Wessex many of which are shared by certain rural groups in Wales
(who also have linguistic links with Breton).
Back in Wessex proper, some of the ancient churches -- the one I recall
most vividly is in Wareham (the model for Anglebury) -- possess inscribed
sarcophagi: the ancient script is almost indecipherable but there is no
doubt that the words are Celtic in origin and most closely resemble what we
know as Welsh.
Cheers,
Rosemarie
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From: hardycor@owl.csusm.edu
Subject: Re: Dorset pronunciation
Date: June 6, 2004 7:19:10 AM PDT
New members who are interested in this topic may wish to review a Forum
discussion of Wessex dialects back in 2002. It can be found in the
searchable archives, under H02053 "Flemish/Wessex dialect Similarities at:
http://www.yale.edu/hardysoc/Welcome/Forum/Searchable%20Archives.htm
There also was a discussion of "The Pity of It" on the Poem of the Month
at one time.
Betty Cortus
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From: rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu
Subject: Re: Dorset pronunciation
Date: June 6, 2004 4:38:14 AM PDT
Ahh-- so it was King Alfred! A kind of latter day General de Gaulle do
you think?
Regarding the speaking of two languages: this goes back a long way. The
Wessex King Aethelstan -- (b.894, reigned 924-940 --grandson of Alfred) who
is reputedly the first king of all the land, used to broadcast his edicts
(usually tithes/tax demands) in village squares across the country, in
Anglo Saxon, but would also send emissaries who would speak the edicts in
the local parlance.
I wonder what he spoke at home -- his mother, Ecgwyn, appears to have a
Welsh name.
Aethelstan, incidentally, defeated the Danes.
Cheers,
Rosemarie
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From: ann@whitlock282.freeserve.co.uk
Subject: Re: Dorset pronunciation
Date: June 6, 2004 10:14:00 AM PDT
The original research on this topic was related to dictation not to
speech,and therefore to written rather than spoken language.
When pupils in a school in Staffordshire, for example, (the county where the
research was first undertaken,) read Hardy aloud, there are likely to be
tones and shapes in the vowels which are quite different from south west
England.
The sound as well as the meaning of words is an important aspect of the
artistic effect of Hardy's imagery. The discussion on pronunciation has led
me to reflect on the influence of inflection and accent on the
interpretation of passages in Hardy's novels.
This topic was considered in a practical way in a seminar at the 2002 Thomas
Hardy Conference when readers with a variety of backgrounds read in
'dramatic form' some extracts from novels, using their natural voices with
all the shades and tones usually associated with them.
The question that we considered was whether or not this distracted from, or
added to, the understanding of the mood, and the thoughts of the characters
involved.
When I read aloud Joan Durbeyfield's letter to Tess before her wedding to
Angel, the discussion which followed suggested that Joan Durbeyfield came
over as more cruel and heartless with a West Midlands pronunciation of the
words than with an imagined Dorset voice in silent reading.
One member of the group agreed to translate a piece of text from Tess of the
D'Urbervilles into her native Japanese and read it aloud as Tess, before
theend of the seminar.
As she spoke, the effect was one which left us in silent amazement at the
emotional closeness between the unfamiliar spoken language and
the feeling evoked by the familiar English text.
There must be many students of Hardy's novels around the world who know
nothing about Dorset speech intonations, and who listen to teachers and
actors reading words in accents far removed from those places where Hardy
lived and wrote.
So, a couple of questions which intrigue me on this topic.
In the study of Hardy's novels, is it a distraction or an advantage to
listen to them read in the style accent and pronunciation of one's local
area?
Do the accent and pronunciation of the reader have a major impact on the
meaning and significance of Hardy's poetic intent in the novels as far as
the listener is concerned?
Ann Whitlock
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From: patrick@prassociates.co.uk
Subject: RE: Dorset pronunciation
Date: June 7, 2004 7:38:32 AM PDT
I was
brought up in
the south of Wales, and holidayed in the north. It was my
experience that in
general the accent of those from the north was much deeper and
quite distinct
from that in the south.
Jess,
There is a considerable difference between the north and south Welsh, and
further regional variations within that framework. This is true just as
much of the English spoken in Wales as it is of the Welsh language itself
which has many grammatical, vocabulary and pronunciation differences between
North and South.
In regard to Dorset, it seems that Brittonic (a form of P-Celtic related to
modern Welsh) would have been the most widespread tonge when the
Anglo-Saxons arrived. Many might have been able to speak Latin, or a
dialect thereof, but from what I have read Brittonic seems more likely as
the general mother tonge. The publisher and linguist Joseph Biddulph has
produced a booklet entitled "Handbook of West Country Brythonic" which gives
an indication of what the pre-Saxon languages of the South West outside
Cornwall might have been like in the 7th century. They were, it seems, more
akin to Cornish and Breton than to Welsh, though they were all P-Celtic, of
course.
There are many Celtic survivals in Hardy's Wessex and, as a keen
archaeologist, TH must have been well aware of this Celtic underlay to the
Anglo-Saxon. A good example is the place name 'Loders' near Bridport. This
is thought by modern scholars to be cognate with the Welsh 'llodre' and the
linguist Andrew Breeze says that if this is correct it provides "evidence
for Celtic survival in Dorset after the Anglo-Saxon conquest. Loders must
have been inhabited continuously. It could not have been deserted, or its
name would have been lost. The English would learn its name from the
Britons who remained there (no doubt as slaves) when Dorset was conquered by
the Anglo-Saxons in the early seventh century".
As I have said on this list before, as late as the 12th century the
pre-Saxon Celtic name of some places in the West Country was still known:
Shaftesbury, for example, is recorded as having once been 'Lanprobi'.
Patrick Roper
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From: rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu
Subject: RE: Dorset pronunciation
Date: June 7, 2004 11:03:23 AM PDT
This is wonderfully informative, Patrick, but I don't get the logic of this:
Loders must
have been inhabited continuously. It could not have been deserted, or its
name would have been lost. The English would learn its name from the
Britons who remained there (no doubt as slaves) when Dorset was conquered by
the Anglo-Saxons in the early seventh century".
Patrick Roper
Pompeii was deserted and retained its name; Petra was deserted and kept its
name. Not that Loders quite matches these fine cities for repute but it
must have had some visitors & traders who would have taken the name away
with them -- in conversations and records of other kinds -- surely?
Rosemarie
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From: patrick@prassociates.co.uk
Subject: RE: Dorset pronunciation
Date: June 7, 2004 1:01:59 PM PDT
This is wonderfully informative, Patrick, but I don't get the
logic of this:
Loders must
have been inhabited continuously. It could not have been
deserted, or its
name would have been lost. The English would learn its name from the
Britons who remained there (no doubt as slaves) when Dorset was
conquered by
the Anglo-Saxons in the early seventh century".
Patrick Roper
Pompeii was deserted and retained its name; Petra was deserted
and kept its
name. Not that Loders quite matches these fine cities for repute but it
must have had some visitors & traders who would have taken the name away
with them -- in conversations and records of other kinds -- surely?
Rosemarie,
I tend to agree that Andrew Breeze's statement is rather sweeping. As I am
sure you know, the debate about what actually happened with the Anglo-Saxons
in Britain remains a very lively one and, in many areas, the Celtic-speaking
population could not have been totally killed off or forced out.
I suppose many places retain their names because there is a wider culture
that records and preserves them. The western European Celtic-speakers
didn't write very much down and, if they did, it was quickly lost. Much of
what we do know was preserved by the Romans or the Christian community,
especially monastics.
Andrew Breeze's paper was originally published in 1997 in the Proceedings of
the Dorset Natural History and Archaeological Society (didn't TH belong to
that?) and is now contained in a book published in 2000 'Celtic Voices
English Places: studies of the Celtic impact on place-names in England'.
There is much fascinating material about places in Wessex in this book but
it is also clear that the debate on how things came to be as they are will
go on for another millennium or two.
I will muse on the matter of Loders - that should keep me off the streets.
Patrick Roper
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From: colleen@angelgloria.freeserve.co.uk
Subject: Thank you
Date: June 9, 2004 11:02:13 AM PDT
Thanks to all who responded for your helpful information on Dorset pronunciation.
Colleen
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From: segr@segr-music.net
Subject: Dialect
Date: June 12, 2004 6:04:04 AM PDT
A little late to catch the discussions perhaps
but as one interested from the point of view of
the singer's problems I would ask if there is much
that is different between Dorsetshire and
Somersetshire accents that would tend to show up
in (serious) song. I am not thinking here about
folk-song, where perhaps it is the intention to give
a local flavour to the rendition.
It may be of interest to listen to Lady Anne's latest interpretation
of "Should He Upbraid" under the 'Transcriptions/For Hardy Lovers'
on the website below. "The Maid" came from Keinton Mandeville
and I have always wondered how 'local' she sounded!
Regards to all.
Roy Buckle.
www.segr-music.net
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