word.......I can only conclude that this was

due to one half of a hyphenated word in line four of the poem<

Or perhaps it was That Word in the last line - "b**s", from that well-known

filthy phrase "the birds and the"....

K Eldron

Page 89 of this has telling maps showing the loss and fragmentation of

Dorset heaths between 1811 and 1978, due to

agricultural intensification and housing.

In regard to words that might be inappropriate in other contexts (just to

get in my ha'pennyworth), thank heavens TH's moor cock weren't in the Piddle

Valley.

Patrick Roper

?From: ? rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

?Subject: ?RE: Spring

?Date: ?March 22, 2004 4:54:02 AM PST

Thank you for the "grouse" talk, Patrick. I've been following, closely, the

re-establishment of "Egdon" (my old stamping ground-- while we are on the

subject of "wild boar") to heathland following the Forestry Commission's

spoilation by intensive planting of coniferous trees and as you will have

gathered from our Forum activity Blackmore Vale is now safe from the

installation of wind turbines (fingers crossed: no rescinding). So it

appears that things are moving in the right direction.

I remember long ago walking with Roy Morrell over Wessex Heights, St

Aldhelm's Head, High Stor and way beyond, keeping an eye out for the Dorset

Blue butterfly (the local name for it?) and enchantment -- those

"rare-fair" hills and meadows -- is the only word that can describe those

lovely days (no --not "walking." Anyone who knew Roy will know he never

"walked" anywhere. Keeping up with his sprinting pace even when he was in

his eighties was a feat!). I later learned that the Dorset Blue had become

extinct.

Cheers,

Rosemarie

In regard to words that might be inappropriate in other contexts (just to

get in my ha'pennyworth), thank heavens TH's moor cock weren't in the Piddle

Valley.

Patrick Roper

?From: ? patrick@prassociates.co.uk

?Subject: ?RE: Spring

?Date: ?March 23, 2004 10:28:18 AM PST

In his poem 'Spring' which we have been discussing, TH said:

I shall go where went I when

Down the moor-cock splashed, and hen,

Seeing me not, amid their flounder ...

It occurs to me that some of the sense of these lines might be lost by those

who know little of the mating habits of the black grouse (or moor-cock).

The birds have a remarkable communal courtship: "In late winter and spring

male black grouse congregate at traditional locations called leks, where

they compete for the females. The males arrive from miles around to display

communally and fight to establish possession of the most valuable

territory." This is, presumably, the 'flounder' referred to by TH.

There is an attractive web site on the bird and its leks (I bet TH would

have liked that word) here:

Bill,

What made me assume TH was referring to the black grouse is that the malehas such a spectacular display and the white wing and tail feathers contrastvery strongly with the black ones as the bird dances about making a 'splash'reminiscent, I imagine, of splashing water. This is accompanied by a sortof 'bubbling' call which strengthens the watery theme. Also the females areknown as 'grey hens' which seems to accord with TH's line.

The humble moorhen does go in for a bit of displaying, with the male chasingthe female up and down ditches and so on, but this is not nearly such anobvious as that of the black grouse, which has one of the most dramaticavian displays, so the ambiguity remains.

I wonder if we can get any more evidence into this topic to determine what

TH really meant.

Patrick Roper

?From: ? wwmorgan@ilstu.edu

?Subject: ?RE: Spring

?Date: ?March 24, 2004 7:53:20 PM PST

Patrick,

        Thank you for graciously conceding that there might a rival bird here! 

        I suppose there are two issues in the discussion: (1) If we're looking to assess Hardy's avian knowledge, then we want to know which bird he may have had in mind and how well he described it, but (2) if our focus is on the aesthetic experience of the poem, then we want to know which bird makes more sense in the poem--or makes the poem a better piece of work.  I am emboldened by your message below to try to make the case for the lowly moor-hen (and her fella, the moor-cock) as the better choice in both cases. 

        So far as I can tell from what I have about me here, Hardy never refers to grouse (grice?) of any kind (red, black, ruffed, etc.): I did a search in Martin Ray's marvelous concordances to Complete Poems and The Dynasts, and I hauled out some old ASCii texts of Early Life, Later Years, Desperate Remedies, Two on a Tower, Madding Crowd, Tess, Return, Mayor, Old Mrs. Chundle and The Queen of Cornwall, did a search for grouse and found nothing.  Perhaps in another novel or in the letters he may have a grouse or two; I'm prepared to be corrected.  The results are not much better for moor fowl: the only hits are line 4 of "If it's ever spring again"

If it's ever spring again,

        Spring again,

I shall go where went I when

Down the moor-cock splashed, and hen,

Seeing me not, amid their flounder,

Standing with my arm around her, . . .

and lines 8 & 12 of "Overlooking the River Stour":

Planing up shavings of crystal spray

        A moor-hen darted out

        From the bank thereabout,

And through the stream-shine ripped his way;

Planing up shavings of crystal spray

        A moor-hen darted out. 

But at least Hardy consistently associates his moor-fowl with water and with noisy motion (splashed, flounder, planing, ripped his way).  I think this consistency is some small evidence that he's referring to the behavior of a bird he knows well and a bird that is awkward in flight and in the water.  So if we want to make a case for Hardy's avian knowledge, I say he's got the moor-hen pegged--I give him high marks for field observation.

        Now, which bird, black grouse or common moor-hen, works best in the poem?  Although I grant your point that the black grouse has a much more interesting mating display and is a more elegant bird altogether, I nonetheless think that the lowly moor-hen works better in the poem.  Both stanzas of the poem set up subtle comparisons between pairs of birds and the narrator and his beloved--moor-fowl splashing around in the first stanza and cuckoos calling in the second.  As the season progresses from spring into summer, the scene becomes dryer and sunnier, and the couple's love behavior matures from embraces to the contemplation of longer-term plans.  The moor hen's association with water and its physical awkwardness seem to me to have more appropriate resonances for the kind of picture the first stanza is painting.  In short, I can place the moor-hen within the poem and experience a kind of harmony that is lacking if I place a black grouse there. 

        And, finally, I suppose I have to say that as much as I am enjoying this discussion about Hardy and birds, I don't really think "If It's Ever Spring Again" is much of a Hardy poem!  It's workmanlike and competent, but does it have much depth?  Do others care to make a case for its importance?

        Enough from me.  And thanks again, Patrick.

                                                        best,

                                                        Bill

?Resent-From: ? HARDY-L@csusm.edu

?From: ? hardycor@owl.csusm.edu

?Subject: ?RE: Spring

?Date: ?March 25, 2004 7:11:33 AM PST

?To: ? HARDY-L@csusm.edu

?Reply-To: ? HARDY-L@csusm.edu

Bill Morgan Wrote:

I agree with you that the poem is slight Bill, and some of its

elements--the "flounder / around her" rhyme for example--make me wince,

but it has an airy wistfulness that I feel lifts it above the merely

workmanlike and competent. Let's not forget it is a song lyric which would

account for its lightness and the repeated phrases common to song lyrics.

By the way, as it ever been set to music? I'll repeat the poem again for

the benefit of those who may have missed it.

All the Best,

Betty

If It's Ever Spring Again

(Song)

If it's ever spring again,

Spring again,

I shall go where went I when

Down the moor-cock splashed. and hen,

Seeing me not, amid their flounder,

Standing with my arm around her;

If it's ever spring again,

Spring again,

I shall go where went I then.

If it's ever summer-time,

Summer-time,

With the hay crop at the prime,

And the cuckoos - two - in rhyme,

As they used to be, or seemed to,

We shall do as long we've dreamed to,

If it's ever summer-time,

Summer-time,

With the hay, and bees achime.

?From: ? rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

?Subject: ?RE: Spring

?Date: ?March 25, 2004 7:36:52 AM PST

Betty, I was going to make a similar point. No sooner had I started reading

Hardy's Springing lines than I burst into spontaneous song. It's a easy

lyric to sing to -- many tunes fit is quite naturally (though I made some

embellishments, of course, which is half the fun!). The song springs quite

naturally from the poem, to my mind -- just reading the first stanza or so.

In fact, I was so busy singing my 'li'l heart out that the Sears Repair

Man stood at my door for 15 minutes (unbeknownst to me) patiently awaiting

my finish before summoning me to the doorbell for the umpteenth ringing.

Workmanlike and competent? I really couldn't care less-- it's pure music!

Besties,

Rosemarie

?From: ? joanna.mink@mnsu.edu

?Subject: ?RE: Spring

?Date: ?March 25, 2004 7:54:27 AM PST

Rosemarie--

Is this an announcement of a new, audio element of the TTHA website?

JoAnna S. Mink

Professor of English

Minnesota State University, Mankato

Mankato, MN 56001

?From: ? wwmorgan@ilstu.edu

?Subject: ?RE: Spring

?Date: ?March 25, 2004 8:57:23 AM PST

      Yes, Betty, it has been set to music--at least three times.  Here's most of a paragraph from Bailey's Handbook and Commentary, p. 451:

        "If It's Ever Spring Again" has been set to music by Robin Milford in Four Hardy Songs (Oxford University Press, 1939) and Christopher LeFleming (London: J. & W. Chester, 1943).  When Russell [sic.; should be Rutland] Boughton prepared an operatic version of The Queen of Cornwall, he included the poem as one of six lyrics to be inserted into the opera."

        I'm not familiar with any of these settings, but I am willing to concede that the bar is a bit lower for song lyrics--though why that should be so is not entirely clear to me. 

        And may I use this occasion to enter a small query and possibly a lament?: Why is it that we can have this kind of busy discussion about a Hardy poem on the Forum (remember last month's discussion of "Unkept Good Fridays" for another example) but the POTM discussion can sit for a month with only two or three postings?  Is the problem that it's too much trouble to go to

        I'll stop now. 

                                                        Bill

?From: ? rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu

?Subject: ?RE: Spring

?Date: ?March 25, 2004 8:59:58 AM PST

I don't think, JoAnna, you would want this!

I started out with Solveig's Song --from Grieg's *Peer Gynt,* which does

beautifully for the opening lines, and then it became a hybrid affair when

the dancing lines (flounder, around her) started sounding more Noel

Cowardian at which point the Sears Man might well have run for help and I

would have no functioning washing machine. I can state, categorically, that

my "audio elements" would not customarily find so stoic an audience.

Cheers,

Rosemarie

Thank you for this Bill. I'm not surprised that the poem has attracted more

than one composer. The lilting quality of its meter and tone irresistably

calls for a musical setting as Rosemarie has discovered.

Betty

Bill,

Interesting comments.  I hope everyone is not getting too bored with grouse v. moorhen!

I continue to incline towards your view and, since your last e-mail, have discovered that Richard Jeffries, in neighbouring Wiltshire, uses both 'moorcock' and 'moorhen' in his book 'Bevis' to describe the bird that isn't a grouse.  He also brings in the words 'splash' or 'splashing' in close proximity.

What is curious, is that Jeffries only uses 'moorcock' in one section near the start of the book - all the other references are to moorhens and, clearly, it is always the same species:  The text can be searched here:

My problem is that when I see or hear the word 'moorcock' I cannot help thinking of grouse and, in all my 66 years, I have never heard moorhens, which are very familiar birds in the countryside, called 'moorcocks', whatever their sex.  'Moor cock' is also widely used in the North and Scotland as a pub name and it always, I believe, refers to grouse (usually red grouse).  We also have a farm not ten miles from my home here in Sussex called 'Moorcocks'.  It is up on what used to be a high and heathy ridge and is ideal territory for black grouse (which used to occur here), but not for moorhens.

So far as the black grouse is concerned, if it wasn't called the moorcock in Dorset, I wonder what it was called.  It is a very distinctive fowl and was, apparently, not uncommon on the woodier parts of the Dorset heaths.  Like the nightjar, it was just as much heard as seen, and I feel sure TH would have been familiar with it as he was with so much of his local countryside.  Their complex and elaborate courtship also reminds me of much that Hardy wrote in his novels.

In the poem, of course, TH might have eschewed the word 'moorhen' because he needed to use 'hen' later in the line to rhyme with 'when'.  He also might have preferred the rather unsual, and possibly archaic, usage.  I expect, of course, he was well aware that a 'moor cock' could be one bird or the other (after all, he had visited Scotland quite often) and be having a good chuckle at our deliberations now.

It reminded me of "Admiral Benbow" -- the tune works pretty well if you sing

the first line of the poem twice.

Chuck Anesi

office 612-667-9518

cell 612-940-3345

To clarify..

If it's ever spring again, spring again, spring again,

It it's ever spring again, spring again.

etc.

Of course thousands of other tunes would work as well.

-----Original Message-----

From: Anesi, Charles

Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 1:02 PM

Subject: RE: Spring

It reminded me of "Admiral Benbow" -- the tune works pretty well if you sing

the first line of the poem twice.

Chuck Anesi

office 612-667-9518

cell 612-940-3345

Hello all,

Just wanted to pick up on 'Bill's lament' regarding the rapid interchanges

here on aspects of Hardy's poetry and the pace of life on POTM - I think the

frank, light-hearted, exploratory exchanges here are highly appropriate to

the webboard.Would it be appropriate to post the POTM within this forum

(with a specific question regarding a niggly point) and then, when the

discussion comes to a natural end, to post it as a joint contribution to the

POTM site?

In this way, we can maintain the scholarly nature of the site, which

encourages the fuller and lengthier contributions, but also encourage

brief, individual responses and the teasing out of particularly knotty

problems. It would facilitate the active participation of the members of

this forum and encourage Hardy enthusiasts and passers-by who 'dip in' to

our sites to add their comments more frequently.

However, there may be reasons why this is not a good idea - technical or

otherwise. Any comments anyone?

Carolyn McGrath