| H03069 "LYONNESSE-COMMENTS AND PRONUNCIATION" 8/11/03 HARDY FORUM ARCHIVE |
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From: "K Eldron" <kaffi@onetel.net.uk> Subject: LYONESSE Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:16:29
Help! Is it LEE-onesse or LIE-onesse? Regards K Eldron kaffi@onetel.net.uk |
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From: "Rare Books" <rarebks@aiconnect.com> Subject: Re: LYONESSE Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:21:42 -0400
They are both correct. Hardy used LIE onesse (determined by the metrics.) The common pronunciation is LEE onesse. The spelling btw is Lyonnesse. Steve Pastore |
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From: "Patrick Roper" <patrick@prassociates.co.uk> Subject: RE: LYONESSE Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:37:18 +0100
Hi there, The people in Penwith, west Cornwall, and the Isles of Scilly pronounce it 'Lie - onesse' and I regard this as correct. The other version comes, I believe, by comparison with Lyons in France and, away from Cornwall and the 'Lyonesse area' seems to be the more frequent choice. Patrick Roper |
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From: "Patrick Roper" <patrick@prassociates.co.uk> Subject: RE: LYONESSE Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:03:56 +0100
They are both correct. Hardy used LIE onesse (determined by the metrics.) The common pronunciation is LEE onesse. The spelling btw is Lyonnesse.
Steve Pastore
I have responded seperately on the pronouciation issue (Lie-onesse is the way Cornish people usually pronounce it). Hardy did, of course, spell it with two ns - Lyonnesse. This was not uncommon in the 19th century and has persisted here and there until today. However, Lyonesse, with one n, seems to be commoner version now. Earlier variants include Leoneis, Leonois, Liones, Lioness, Lionesse, Lionnesse, Loenois (probably the earliest form), Loheniss, Lohnois, Lonoyss, Loonois and Lyones. Patrick Roper |
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From: "Gary Alderson" <Gary.Alderson@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: LYONESSE Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:20:34 +0100
A possible alternative is Leon (as in "St Pol de Leon") in Britanny; this would make some sense in terms of the Arthurian connotations. Mind you, given French pronuciation that would make it Lay-on-ess. Gary Alderson |
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From: "Patrick Roper" <patrick@prassociates.co.uk> Subject: RE: LYONESSE Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:17:02 +0100
Gary Alderson said " A possible alternative is Leon (as in "St Pol de Leon") in Britanny; this would make some sense in terms of the Arthurian connotations. Mind you, given French pronuciation that would make it Lay-on-ess."
References to Lyonesse go back only to the 12th century, some time after it was supposedly drowned. The earliest mentions are in literature in Old French and German and spelling is variable.
One of the best sources of the early medieval Tristan & Iseult story (? 6th century) is B&rouroul's 'Roman de Tristan'. Béroul seemed to know Cornwall well and he said that Tristan's native land was Loenois, which is usually interpreted today as Lothian in Scotland. Since Tristan appears to be a Pictish name, this is certainly possible but argument continues. At a later date 'Loenois' was confused with 'Léonois' the Breton province of St Pol de Léon and the idea arose that Tristan came from Brittany. How the story became associated so strongly with Cornwall is complex and there are still many different ideas.
The above, btw, is discussed by Roger Sherman Loomis in 'A Survey of Tristan Scholarship after 1911'. In 1923, shortly before the publication of 'The Queen of Cornwall' a Roger L. Loomis was, according to Michael Millgate, entertained by TH at Max Gate and they discussed the Tristan story. I am not quite sure, but I think this Roger L. Loomis may have been the father of Roger Sherman Loomis and husband of Gertrude Schoepperle Loomis, a formidable medieval scholar who wrote the then definitive 'Tristan and Isolt. A Study of the Sources of the Romance' published in 1913.
Apart from in an Arthurian context, Lyonesse is first mentioned in an historical sense as a drowned land off Cornwall by William Camden in his 'Britannia' (1586). He spells it 'Lionesse'. It was, however, Cornishman Richard Carew's 'Survey' of 1602 that seems to have established the idea of the place that is generally understood today. Carew spelt it 'Lionnesse' and this, I believe, supports the traditional Cornish pronounciation. Carew said: "the encroaching Sea hath ravined from" (Cornwall) "the whole Country of Lionnesse, together with divers other parcels of no little circuit" and more. Most of today's tales derive from these early accounts. I have, however, met west Cornish fishermen who (without any trace of a twinkle in their eyes) firmly believe Lyonesse lies under the Atlantic between Land's End and the Isles of Scilly, so there may be an old and well-founded folk tradition in addition to the literary evidence (even if Lyonesse isn't really there).
Patrick Roper |
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From: "K Eldron" <kaffi@onetel.net.uk> Subject: Re: LYONNESSE PRONUNCIATION Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:17:32 +0100
Many thanks for the erudite responses to my enquiry. It arose, incidentally, because I was listening to Richard Burton reading from Hardy. He includes "I found her out there": "And would sigh at the tale Of sunk Lee-onnesse, As a wind-tugged tress Flapped her cheek like a flail ;" On reflection, I think his reading is right: as a weak echo of its near forerunner "sigh", "Lie" would interrupt the movement of the first three lines, but the echo of "Lee" in "cheek" creates an almost imperceptible break at just the right point to heighten the impact of "like a flail". Impact being the mot juste - having once been hit in the face by a flail (semi-accidentally) I find it a very violent simile, even for a blind Atlantic gale. Regards K Eldron kaffi@onetel.net.uk |
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Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:22:42 -0400 From: Rosemarie Morgan <rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu> Subject: Re: LYONNESSE PRONUNCIATION
So glad you said this-- I thought the same about "When I Set Out for Lyonesse" : rhyming LIONesse with "eyes' ("magic in my eyes" ) is horribly crude and vowel-ugly. Lee-onesse, on the other hand mutes into "spray" and "away" in a way "Lie" could never do with its gaping mouth sound.
Thank you! RM. |
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From: "Patrick Roper" <patrick@prassociates.co.uk> Subject: RE: LYONNESSE PRONUNCIATION Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:26:35 +0100
> Many thanks for the erudite responses to my enquiry. It arose, > incidentally, because I was listening to Richard Burton reading > from Hardy. > He includes "I found her out there": > "And would sigh at the tale > Of sunk Lee-onnesse, > As a wind-tugged tress > Flapped her cheek like a flail ;" > On reflection, I think his reading is right: as a weak echo of its near forerunner "sigh", "Lie" would interrupt the movement of the first three lines, but the echo of "Lee" in "cheek" creates an almost imperceptible break at just the right point to heighten the impact of "like a flail". Impact being the mot juste - having once been hit in the face by a flail (semi-accidentally) I find it a very violent simile, even for a blind Atlantic gale.
Ken,
Interesting. Notwithstanding my earlier comments, I don't think it really matters if there is a 'correct' pronunciation or not. We have many villages here in Sussex with a local pronunciation and a 'BBC' pronunciation and many speakers alternate between the two. 'Flimwell' for example is pronounced with two equally stressed syllables by almost everyone but with the stress on the second syllable by locals. Having been brought up near the place I vary between one and the other according to the audience: I don't want to sound either pedantic or patronising.
Lyon(n)esse as a geographic location was, of course, a long way from St Juliot and people in east Cornwall may not have pronounced it like people in west Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, so it is possible that Hardy used the Lee-onnesse variant (as I always did until I heard the west Cornish version). In fact in the 19th and early 20th century it is more than likely that the vast majority of the population of east Cornwall had never heard of Lyon(n)esse and never had any occasion to speak it.
Well-read people would, of course, have been familiar with the word from novels like 'Armorel of Lyonnesse' and poetry by Swinburne, Tennyson etc. Tennyson is interesting inasmuch as he writes in 'The Passing of Arthur':
Then rose the King and moved his host by night, And ever pushed Sir Modred, league by league, Back to the sunset bound of Lyonnesse -- A land of old upheaven from the abyss By fire, to sink into the abyss again;
It seems to me that 'Lee-onnesse' makes too many 'lees' in this when combined with 'league on league'. Some readers would, of course, have been familiar with Malory's 'Mort d'Arthur', but I think this would have usually have led to a 'Lie-onnesse' pronunciation: "Sir, said Segwarides, I know you for Sir Tristram de Liones, the man in the world that I have most cause to hate."
My feeling is that people who see the word Lyon(n)esse today tend to pronounce it 'Lee-onness' without really thinking about the matter. As I said before it is perhaps because it looks vaguely French (though people called 'Lyons' usually seem to use 'lie-ons' rather than 'lee-ons' as in those wonderful, long-lost Lyons Corner Houses).
Patrick Roper |
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From: "Patrick Roper" <patrick@prassociates.co.uk> Subject: RE: LYONNESSE PRONUNCIATION Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:35:30 +0100
> So glad you said this-- I thought the same about "When I Set Out for > Lyonesse" : rhyming LIONesse with "eyes' > ("magic in my eyes" ) is horribly crude and vowel-ugly. > Lee-onesse, on the > other hand mutes into "spray" and "away" in a way "Lie" could > never do with > its gaping mouth sound.
Rosemarie,
Your comments so reminded me of Sylvia Plath's poem 'Lyonnesse':
No use whistling for Lyonnesse ! Sea-cold, sea-cold it certainly is. Take a look at the white, high berg on his forehead-
There's where it sunk. The blue, green, Gray, indeterminate gilt |
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Sea of his eyes washing over it And a round bubble Popping upward from the mouths of bells
People and cows. The Lyonians had always thought Heaven would be something else,
But with the same faces, The same places... It was not a shock-
The clear, green, quite breathable atmosphere, Cold grits underfoot, And the spidery water-dazzle on field and street.
It never occurred that they had been forgot, That the big God Had lazily closed one eye and let them slip
Over the English cliff and under so much history ! They did not see him smile, Turn, like an animal,
In his cage of ether, his cage of stars. He'd had so many wars ! The white gape of his mind was the real Tabula Rasa.
Patrick Roper |
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From: "K Eldron" <kaffi@onetel.net.uk> Subject: Re: LYONNESSE PRONUNCIATION Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:53:58 +0100
I'm glad you agree. Richard Burton is probably unfashionable these days but I still think that at his best he was an incomparable reader of poetry, with a very sure ear. Unlike most actors blessed with a rich voice he read for sense rather than effect (look after the sense and the sounds will take care of themselves - Lewis Carroll?). There is an electrifying recording of him reading Hopkins's Leaden/Golden echoes. The speed is incredible, the clarity absolute. Cheers K Eldron PS I loved your joke about the corrupt Mayors. Michael Barry obviously didn't grow up with the same City Hall films noirs that I did! kaffi@onetel.net.uk |
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From: "Patrick Roper" <patrick@prassociates.co.uk> Subject: RE: LYONNESSE PRONUNCIATION Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:23:22 +0100
In addition to Tennyson and Malory, TH was probably also familiar with the mentions of Lyonesse below. Subscribers might like to speculate how their authors and, indeed, TH might have pronounced them (note the variations in spelling):
>From Swinburne's 'Queen Yseult'
And he thirsted for one tress, Praising her in humbleness. Men him called of Lyonesse
Or in Swinburne's 'Tristram of Lyonesse':
Past Lyonesse unswallowed of the tides And high Carlion that now the steep sea hides
Or Matthew Arnold's 'Tristram and Iseult':
I know him by his forest-dress-- The peerless hunter, harper, knight, Tristram of Lyoness.
Or Chesterton's 'The Ballad of the White Horse' (first published in 1911):
And the great kings of Wessex Wearied and sank in gore, And even their ghosts in that great stress Grew greyer and greyer, less and less, With the lords that died in Lyonesse And the king that comes no more.
Patrick Roper |
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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:15:25 -0400 From: Rosemarie Morgan <rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu> Subject: RE: LYONNESSE PRONUNCIATION
This marvellous God-monster poem hurts terribly in its intensity of deathless pain and spiritual annihilation.
I don't think I'd be capable of reading it in class ...
What a wealth of "Lyonesses" there are--
Thank you, Patrick.
R |
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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:33:12 -0400 From: Rosemarie Morgan <rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu> Subject: Re: LYONNESSE PRONUNCIATION
Burton's readings are immortal (his "Under Milkwood" is an all-time spoiler -- even Dylan Thomas's own reading pales by comparison). And his rendition of Hardy's"Lalage's coming." is the most erotic thing ever!
Yes!
R
PS I think I can say, in as far as my short but regular native "returns" to Dorset & the Kingdom of Fife permit of a clear perception, that British Mayors & their Scottish equivalent may be fumbling and bumbling but they are rarely a serious hazard to the public interest. |
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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 16:48:22 -0700 From: Betty Cortus <hardycor@owl.csusm.edu> Subject: RE: LYONNESSE PRONUNCIATION
>This marvellous God-monster poem hurts terribly in its intensity of >deathless pain and spiritual annihilation. > >I don't think I'd be capable of reading it in class ...
How true Rosemarie. These lines in particular:
>It never occurred that they had been forgot, >>That the big God >>Had lazily closed one eye and let them slip
echoed Hardy's, in my mind:
"Or come we of an Automaton Unconscious of our pains? . . . Or are we live remains of Godhead dying downwards, brain and eye now gone?"
(Nature's Questioning) |
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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:20:31 -0400 From: Rosemarie Morgan <rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu> Subject: RE: LYONNESSE PRONUNCIATION
Yes-- ! so Hardyan- these lines!
I'm not a Plath expert but I am a passionate admirer -- this wild, wonderfully mad, seer-genius. Does any one know, whether she read --or thought about -- Hardy? as she sat for hours on end , this visionary poet, before her dying fire in her lonely West of England home -- ?
RM |