HARDY FORUM ARCHIVE HO3018 4/3/03 "PRONOUNCIATION OF LAODICEAN"
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From: "BRIAN DEVONALD" <BRIAN@devonaldspace.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: THE PRONUCIATION OF A LAODICEAN
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 16:08:25 +0100
background=cid:000701c2f9f2$e0021570$9865fea9@your2wz24prx1x> HOW IS THE THOMAS HARDY NOVEL A LAODICEAN PRONOUNCED? IS IT 1 A LAY-DIE-KEEN ? 2 A LIE-O-DIE -SEEN ? 3 A LIE-O-DIE-KEEN? 4 SOME ALTERNATIVE PRONUNCIATION? I ASK THIS QUESTION SINCE I HAVE NEVER HEARD ANYONE MENTION THIS NOVEL IN SPEECH. THANK YOU. BRIAN DEVONALD Content-Type: Attachment converted: Emma:Clear Day Bkgrd.JPG 1 (JPEG/JVWR) (00021975)
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Subject: RE: THE PRONUCIATION OF A LAODICEAN
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 09:46:10 -0600
From: Joanna Mink
I've heard it (and pronounce it) as five syllables, something like this: LAY-ODD-UH-SEE-AN The pronounciation in my dictionary looks similar. (I can't reproduce the diacritical marks) Brian's second comment is interesting to me. How often do we TALK about this novel? Sure, it's more likely to be mentioned at the Hardy Society Conferences, but since most people come to Hardy through their school studies, I wonder who is teaching _A Laodicean_ and in what context/courses? JoAnna JoAnna S. Mink
Professor of English
Minnesota State University, Mankato
Mankato, MN 56001
joanna.mink@mnsu.edu
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From: "harrybatt" <harrybatt@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Re: THE PRONUCIATION OF A LAODICEAN
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 10:11:48 -0600
Brian: M Webster's pronunciation guide is the way I pronounce it in the Midwest:
Main Entry: 1la·od·i·ce·an Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: (|)l|äd|sn
But, we do say crick for creek. Regards: John R. Bridell, Minneapolis, Minnesota
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Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 10:07:22 -0600
From: Bill Morgan <wwmorgan@mail.ilstu.edu>
Subject: Re: THE PRONUCIATION OF A LAODICEAN
I have heard most often
A Lay-o-di-see--an
Bill Morgan
At 04:08 PM 4/03/2003 +0100, you wrote:
HOW IS THE THOMAS HARDY NOVEL A LAODICEAN PRONOUNCED?
IS IT 1 A LAY-DIE-KEEN ?
2 A LIE-O-DIE -SEEN ?
3 A LIE-O-DIE-KEEN?
4 SOME ALTERNATIVE PRONUNCIATION?
I ASK THIS QUESTION SINCE I HAVE NEVER HEARD ANYONE MENTION THIS NOVEL IN SPEECH. THANK YOU.
BRIAN DEVONALD
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From: "Patrick Roper" <patrick@prassociates.co.uk>
Subject: RE: THE PRONUCIATION OF A LAODICEAN
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 20:36:50 +0100
I have heard most often
A Lay-o-di-see--an
Bill Morgan
That is how I have always pronounced it without thinking about it much. However, the biblical town of Laodicea was named by a combination of the Greek laos (lah-os) and dike (dee'-kay) (meaning "justice of the people"), so perhaps we should pronounce it with a hard 'c'. TH, with his knowledge of Greek, may have preferred this. Other pronunciation conundrums are 'Elfride', which we have discussed before (was the final 'e' meant to be sounded or not) and 'Lyonnesse'. Most people say 'Leeoness' but folk in Cornwall, which is, arguably, where Lyonnesse was, and certainly where Hardy's Lyonnesse was, pronounce it 'Lioness' like the animal. I must say that in the poem "When I set out for Lyonnesse" I prefer the Cornish pronunciation, but maybe that is because I am used to hearing people say it that way. Patrick Roper
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Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 14:05:53 -0600
From: brown@jc.edu
Subject: Re: THE PRONUCIATION OF A LAODICEAN
I have heard most often
A Lay-o-di-see--an
Bill Morgan
That is how I have always pronounced it without thinking about it much. However, the biblical town of Laodicea was named by a combination of the Greek laos (lah-os) and dike (dee'-kay) (meaning "justice of the people"), so perhaps we should pronounce it with a hard 'c'. TH, with his knowledge of Greek, may have preferred this.
Where do the accents fall? My dictionary assigns a secondary stress to the second syllable, a primary stress to the fourth. Did Hardy ever use the word in his poems? (I must confess that whenever I see the title of the novel, I hear it as iambic trimeter.)
Mark Brown
Jamestown College
North Dakota, USA
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From: lynn@ideageek.dyndns.org
Subject: Re: THE PRONUCIATION OF A LAODICEAN
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 15:51:43 -0600
Merriam Webster's Online (www.m-w.com) has an audio pronunciation feature
where you can click and hear the word pronounced. It gives both
lay-ODD-i-see-an and LAY-oh-di-see-an.
Best,
Lynn
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Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 15:59:13 -0600
From: Bill Morgan <wwmorgan@mail.ilstu.edu>
Subject: Re: THE PRONUCIATION OF A LAODICEAN
My apologies, Mark (and others), for not indicating the accents in my first posting. As I have most often hear it, they are on the first and fourth syllables:
A LAY-o-di-SEE-an
But I have also heard Rosemarie's pronunciation:
A LAY-o-DEE-shun
cheers,
Bill
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From: "erb" <erb@segr.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: THE PRONUCIATION OF A LAODICEAN
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 00:33:08 +0100
I seem to remember being somewhat taken aback during the last Hardy Conference in Dorchester by a lecture on 'A Laodicean' in which the speaker referred repeatedly to "A lay-o-dish-y-an". One wonders whether Hardy would have approved of his Paula being considered a dishy one. Roy Buckle Hoping to return shortly though still not yet available again at: <http://www.segr-music.net>www.segr-music.net
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Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 22:56:03 -0500
From: Rosemarie Morgan <rosemarie.morgan@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: THE PRONUCIATION OF A LAODICEAN
Hmmmm--
You've got me muttering away to myself (again..) I think it's less the "sh"
sound as in "dishy and not quite as sibilant as in "peace" but something in
between-- as say in "ocean" --
RM
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From: gary.alderson@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: THE PRONUCIATION OF A LAODICEAN
It's quite normal in transcribing Greek kappas, to pronounce them as a soft c - for example cycle and circle, cynic, Cyprus. Always quite hard to know how to pronounce a language when all its native speakers are dead.
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From: "Patrick Roper" <patrick@prassociates.co.uk>
Subject: RE: THE PRONUCIATION OF A LAODICEAN
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:25:07 +0100
> It's quite normal in transcribing Greek kappas, to pronounce them
> as a soft c - for example cycle and circle, cynic, Cyprus. Always
> quite hard to know how to pronounce a language when all its
> native speakers are dead.
Yes, of course, everyone that I have heard pronounces 'Nicaean' (as in
Council and Creed) with a soft 'c'. But 'Nike' has not become 'Nice'
(though most, but not all, people leave the 'e' unsounded, and people
usually sound the 'e' in 'Aphrodite' but not in 'hermaphrodite').
My guess is that TH would have softened the 'c' in Laodicean, but it is just
a guess (I know some people who pronounce the word 'margarine' with a hard g
in deference to the Greek element, and others who use a 'k' at the start of
the word 'questionnaire' in deference to the French origin). It is
essentially a question of what is, or was, actually spoken by whom (and why)
rather than what is 'right'.
Patrick Roper
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From: "Segr Music" <segr@segr-music.net>
Subject: Re: THE PRONUCIATION OF A LAODICEAN
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 15:17:00 +0100
And reverting to Paula we might note that the once 'common' pronunciation of
the name of the noble queen Boadicea (all right then, Boudicca) parallels
that of 'Laodicean'. Dishy advocates feel free to argue your case...
Roy Buckle
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From: "Patrick Roper" <patrick@prassociates.co.uk>
Subject: Re: THE PRONUCIATION OF A LAODICEAN
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 20:03:20 +0100
In Chapter 1 of FFMC TH writes "upon the whole, one who felt himself to
occupy morally that vast middle space of Laodicean
neutrality which lay between the Communion people of the parish and the
drunken section, -- that is, he went to church, but yawned privately by the
time the congregation reached the Nicene creed, and thought of what there
would be for dinner when he meant to be listening to the sermon."
I have always heard 'Nicene' pronounced in England with a soft 'c' and, I
suppose that one might infer from this that 'Laodicean' was also pronounced
with a soft 'c' (it appears to be a word that was reasonably frequently used
in the past but now seems to have fallen out of use).
Apropos of this there is currently some confusion here about the
pronunciation of 'lieutenant'. Should we English address American
lieutenants as 'lootenant' or 'leftenant'? And I wonder how American
friends read the following lines from TH's 'Panthera':
To press campaigning that would hoist the star
Of their lieutenants valorous afar.
Patrick Roper
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Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 16:28:59 -0500
From: Robert Schweik <schweikr@localnet.com>
Subject: Re: THE PRONUCIATION OF A LAODICEAN
To Patrick's query about American practices, I can give one
sheepish--but ultimately defiant--American reply.
When I read Hardy's lines
>"To press campaigning that would hoist the star
> Of their lieutenants valorous afar."
in America, I feel comfortable with 'lootenant' but the
moment I step on UK or Canadian soil I deferentially
use 'leftenant.' Same with 'Dienasts' and 'Dinasts.'
Still, as you can see, I'm altogether adamant about
keeping my period inside the quotation marks. One has
to draw the line somewhere.
Bob Schweik
schweik@fredonia.edu
schweikr@localnet.com
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