HARDY FORUM ARCHIVE H02004 1/9/02 "DEFINITION OF DUMBLEDORE QUESTION" ====================================================================== Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 12:02:16 +0100 From: Daniel Lebauvy Subject: Want for help. Does anybody help me to know the meaning of a word For which I find no translation in any of my English-French dictionnaries, nor in the Concise Oxford dict. ? I read it in "Under The Greenwood Tree", Part I, Chap. 4 (Going the rounds), when the musician-villagers are talking about "harmonion" and "organ" players: Sinners, says one! Miserable dumbledores! answers the other. That idiom, "Dumbledore" having been given for family name to one of the prominent figure of Harry Potter's saga, I did not suspect it could have had any sense. I was wrong... Thank you for any answer to: Dr Daniel Lebauvy. Paris-France ========== From: "Patricia M Mann" > Subject: Re: Want for help. Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 11:44:04 -0000 In my Macmillan - New Wessex edition of 1974 - introduction by Geoffrey Grigson, it states in the notes 'dumbledores. (Dialect.) bumble-bees'. Patricia Mann ========== Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 05:47:10 -0800 From: Charles Herbert Crookston charleshc@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Want for help. Daniel, There is a book, "Thomas Hardy's English, by Ralph W.V. Elliott (Basil Blackwell, Andre Deutsch,1984) ISBN 0-631-13659-2 which I have find very helpful in reading Hardy. on p. 37, Chapter III Ancient and Legitimate: "The word dumbledores, 'bumble-bees', was a Wessex word in its widest sense, current from Devon to Kent and north into Gloucestershire and Berkshire. Hardy uses it figuratively in 'Under The Greenwood Tree," as a word of rustic opprobrium to describe the new-fangled musical instruments threatening the ancient traditions, notably harmonions and barrel organs. 'Miserable dumbledores' 'Right, William, and so they be- miserable dumbledores! said the choir with unanimity. (I, Ch.4) The word reappears in the list of dialect words in the "The Mayor of Casterbridge," which Elizabeth-Jane is endeavoring to unlearn in response to Henchard's painful insistence that dialect is socially inferior: 'she no longer spoke of "dumbledores" but of humble bees"' (Ch. 20) Charles Herbert Crookston ========== From: "Guillaume Cingal" Subject: Re: dumbledores Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:17:27 +0100 In his Thomas Hardy's English (Oxfors: Basil Blackwell, 1984, pp. 37-38), Ralph W. Elliott writes the following comment on dumbledores: The word dumbledores, 'bumble-bees', for example, was a Wessex word in its widest sense, current from Devon to Kent and north into Gloucestershire and Berkshire. Hardy uses it figuratively in Under the Greenwood Tree as a word of rustic opprobrium to describe the new-fangled musical instruments threatening the ancient traditions, notably 'harmonions and barrel-organs'. [...] The word reappears in the list of dialect words in The Mayor of Casterbridge which Elizabeth-Jane is endeavouring to unlearn in response to Henchard's painful insistence that dialect is socially inferior: 'she no longer spoke of 'dumbledores' but of 'humble bees' (Ch. 20). As for Harry Potter, I'm sorry Ican't help you, my fellow countryman! With my best wishes to all Hardy fans, Guillaume Cingal Beauvais, France ========== Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:16:19 -0500 From: "Keith G. Wilson" Subject: Re: Want for help. : Dumbledore is a dialect/archaic word for bumble-bee/humble-bee, so the reference is to the droning/humming noise made (to unsympathetic ears) by the organ or harmonium. Keith Wilson Department of English, University of Ottawa, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K1N 6N5 Tel: (613) 562-5770 Fax: (613) 562-5990 e-mail: kgwilson@uottawa.ca ========== Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 18:01:12 -0600 From: Glen & Sara van Alkemade Subject: Re:Dumbledore The Oxford Complete says this is actually a french word, meaning bumblebee, humblebee or cockchafer, which is a kind of beetle. Glen & Sara van Alkemade Jesus People USA 920 W. Wilson Ave #422 Chicago Il 60640 (773)561-2450 ext 1142 ========== From: NORSTOKE@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:02:18 EST Subject: Re: Dumbledore Apologies for the digression. HumbleBee, Humbug (Striped old English boiled sweet) - is there a connection ? Regards Roger Williams ========== From: "Guillaume Cingal" Subject: Re: Re:Dumbledore Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 15:22:56 +0100 : I'd really like to know what French word "dumbledore" is supposed to derive from. Now, that is baffling! I'll have a look! G. Cingal ========== From: "Guillaume Cingal" Subject: Re: Dumbledore Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:06:21 +0100 If we go on digressing like that, some of us will have to eat humble pie. (Better than bumble bees, though...) Hmm... sorry G. ========== Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:41:22 -0800 From: Betty Cortus Subject: Re: Dumbledore As Dumbledores seem to be the hot topic at the moment I have pulled an old file about those critters out of the archives for the benefit of newer members. Apologies to those who've seen it before. Betty Cortus HARDY FORUM ARCHIVE H9874 9/18/98 "DUMBLEDORES AT MIDNIGHT" ===================================================== Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 1:21 pm EDT (17:21:48 UT) From: "Robert C. Schweik Dr" Organization: State University of New York - College at Fredonia Subject: Did Hardy Notice That? In "An August Midnight" Hardy pictures a scene in a study where there enter a "longlegs, a moth, and a dumbledore." A "dumbledore" at midnight? In every source I've consulted, a "dumbledore" is glossed as a "bumblebee" or "humblebee." But every naturalist I've consulted tells me that's not right: bumblebees do not fly at night, and for one to fly into a study at midnight strains credulity. Is there another sense for the word "dumbledore"? "Dore" does, among other things, refer to certain flying beetles which do fly at night. Or was Hardy in this case merely taking poetic license and a vacation from his usual habit of observing nature closely and accurately? Bob Schweik Robert Schweik Department of English State University College Fredonia, NY 14063 schweik@fredonia.edu ********** Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:18:29 -0800 From: Betty Cortus Subject: Re: Did Hardy Notice That? This subject is of particular interest to me because one of my most vivid memories of the recent Hardy Conference was of Andrew Leah reciting "An August Midnight" by heart, standing by the very window in Hardy's study at Max Gate where the poem was apparently composed. He too pointed out the fact that bumble bees don't fly at night. The _OED_, however, states that a certain dialectal use of the word "dumledore" applies to the cockchafer, a kind of beetle that I would image does fly at night. The _OED_ also cites a line from Hardy's poem "The End of the Episode" which runs "The dumbles thin their humming." I wonder if he may have been using the word generically for any kind of humming insect. Betty Cortus hardycor@mailhost2.csusm.edu ********** From: "Julian W. Whipple" Subject: Re: Did Hardy Notice That? Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:12:46 -0400 Dear Friends, Yes, that was a memorable moment in the study, but I cannot resist putting this bit in: not only have I seen "bumblebees" at night here, I have seen them in Dorset at night. Perhaps they were resting under an eve and were attracted to the light, perhaps they were already indoors but had gone unnoticed, perhaps they were simply stunned earlier and were making their ways back to their hives, but such anomalies DO occur, and I don't think TH strains a bit of credulity by having one fly in. I tend to distrust naturalists who make definitive statements. Incidentally, I have always been struck by the similar tone and subject matter in Frost's "To a Moth Seen in Winter", "A Considerable Speck", and the startling "Design". Julian ********** From: enl090@abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: Did Hardy Notice That? Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:44:30 +0100 (BST) Dear all The only other occasion when Hardy used 'dumbledore' in a poem (this time as a plural) is in the fourth stanza of 'Molly Gone', and the scene is very reminiscent of that in 'An August Midnight': The 4th stanza is as follows: No more singing by Molly to me In the evenings when she Was in mood and in voice, and the candles were lit, And past the porch-quoin The rays would spring out on the laurels; and dumbledores hit On the pane, as if wishing to join. It's poem 444 in Jim Gibson's edition. All the best Martin ========== From: "Guillaume Cingal" Subject: Re: Dumbledore Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 14:47:47 +0100 As my (hopefully) last contribution to the ongoing dumbledorian discussion, I confirm that 'dumbledore' is NOT a French word. The last syllable is derived from the French 'd'or', meaning 'golden', but 'dumble' is definitely Saxon. As a matter of fact, if you enter the key-word 'dumbledore' on any research engine, it shows hundreds of pages devoted to Harry Potter (!), and almost none implying Thomas Hardy. Alas, poor Thomas! Hardyly yours Guillaume PS I'm currently reading A Pair of Blue Eyes and will have tons of questions to put forth soon. PPS Where are the archives? There have been references to them, but I have been unable to find them on the Web. ========== ========== Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 08:45:49 -0800 From: Betty Cortus Subject: Re: Dumbledore : Dear Guillaume, Just go to the TTHA web-site and you will see a link to the Forum at the very top of the first page. If you follow this through you will find all the archive files back to 1997. There is an electronic order form to fill in if you wish to retrieve a particular file. Subjects are sorted into topic threads, and all are available to anyone requesting them, with the exception of files which have been selected to appear in print in a TTHA publication. Betty Cortus hardycor@mailhost2.csusm.edu ========== From: "segr" Subject: Dumbldores etc. Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 23:29:08 -0000 Regards to all. Please see (harmless) attachment. Sorry to be a little late with this. I st..UMBLED.. on it during a search for a picture of a string quartet in action(!). It looks like a ragtime piano piece although I haven't heard it yet. Has anyone? Roy Buckle www.segr-music.net Attachment converted: Emma:bumblebee.jpg (JPEG/JVWR) (00017D1E) ========== Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:49:27 +0100 From: Daniel Lebauvy Subject: Re: Want for help. : Many thanks to all of those who answered my "Want for help/dumbledore". Daniel Lebauvy. Paris-France. . Paris-France. ========== From: "Patrick Roper" > Subject: More on dumbledores Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:14:58 -0000 I have arrived somewhat late in the dumbledore imbroglio but with, I think, some additional information. The word 'dor', meaning beetle or bee, comes from Old English 'dora', Middle English 'dorre' and would not therefore seem to have any French connection. 'Dumble' is, I imagine a variant of 'bumble' or 'humble' and the German word for a bumblebee (also, perhaps more correctly, known in English as a 'humblebee') is 'Hummel'. Thus 'dumbledore' would appear to be a solidly Anglo-Saxon tautology. Patrick Roper ========== Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:04:45 +0100 From: Daniel Lebauvy Subject: Re: More on dumbledores Thank you Patrick for your dumbledoring contribution. Late but one of the best. DL. ==========