HARDY FORUM ARCHIVE H0069 8/25/00 "TEACHING HARDY" ============================================== Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:52:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Meg Cronin Subject: Hynes's Selected Poetry Dear group members, I am teaching a seminar on Hardy (and only Hardy!) this fall, and I'm having a blast planning and studying for it. I have hit a glitch, however. My bookstore can't get OUP's Selected Poetry, edited by Samuel Hynes. At first the pub said it was on back order; then they said it wasn't available and they didn't know when it would be. The web site says on one line that the edition is available and on another that it is not, but it is available in an "alternate binding or edition." My oubookstore manager is finding out what that means. He (the manager) has only found one used copy of the book, and he calls distributors every day about it. What do you suggest that I do, besides making 18 copies of each of the poems that I wish to teach (I haven't completely decided on them all yet)? Do you know if this book is really available? It is supposedly a 1996 and then a 1999 edition, but apparently that isn't true (the 1999 part, at least). Is there another paperback university market book that selects poems from among Hardy's work? If not, which "real" poetry book would you order--meaning, Wessex Poems, Poems of P and P, T's Laughingstocks, Late Lyrics, etc.? I haven't even checked to see if these are available in paperback, because I had chosen the Hynes edition. By the way, I have been on bibliofind to find used copies myself, to no avail. Thank you for thinking about this problem. Thank you as well, for suggesting the Oxford Reader's Companion to Hardy, which I am devouring. This is a fifteen-week seminar (undergrad) on H alone, so I am open to, and will be seeking, any and all suggestions for an intense course like this one. My next inquiry, I expect, will concern illustrations. I'd also like to know what films of Hardy novels are widely available--as at Blockbuster or some such place. I'm in New Hampshire and there aren't many art film shops around. Yours, Meg Cronin Meoghan Cronin St. Anselm College mgcronin@anselm.edu ========== Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:12:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Meg Cronin Subject: poetry edition Dear list members, The confusion about the OUP Hynes edition of poetry is clearing up slowly. OUP has changed the ISBN and my bookstore has now "found" the earlier 1996 edition. The 1999 apparently doesn't exist yet. I am still interested in your responses about books of poetry for a Hardy seminar and anything else you might add about seminars of your own--experiences, tips, etc. But I am no longer asking you to check your bookshelves for battered extra copies of Selected Poetry. Thank you and I hope this second message gets to you before you go to too much mental trouble. Meg Meoghan Cronin St. Anselm College mgcronin@anselm.edu ========== From: "Alan Shelston" Subject: Re: poetry edition Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 17:28:14 +0100 Dear Meg, I'm not quite sure what level you are teaching at. But I have taught (still do) Hardy's poetry to English 3rd year undergraduates (roughly your majors), and I thought you might be interested in suggestions. 1. I usually work from my own photocopied selections of individual poems. I also require the students to have their own paperback Complete Poems for cross-reference - a good large selection would do. I find using the copies helps them to see the poem on the page, and in fact I sometimes put the poems individually on an overhead projector. I really do find this an aid to group discussion - it gets their heads 'out' of the book and looking up at what we are talking about. Too pedagogically elementary? 2. On the poems themselves I like to group or contrast them, as appropriate. I work from Hardy's own terms - 'noticing things' ('Afterwards') 'Moments of Vision' - Satires of Circumstance' - not so much why are these titles appropriate, but how do they relate to what Hardy is doing in individual poems. I find I usually need to bring him back from an excessive seriousness, without diminishing him - this is usually necessary because the students have come to him from the fiction and see him as determinist, tragic, alienated, etc., etc., which he is of course, to varying degrees, but which doesn't encompass all of him. And sometime I have asked students to check through one of the individual volumes to get some sense of overall range - 'Moments of Vision' is best for this in my experience - or perhaps Wessex Poems which is much shorter but something of a special case.. Trevor Johnson's 'Introduction to the Poems (poetry? - I'm working from memory) of Thomas Hardy' does exactly what its title indicates very effectively, I think (Macmillan, middle 1990s?) but basically I like the students to work from the poems themselves. I hope this isn't all vague/patronising (to your students i.e.) but I think some it has worked for me. Good luck - Alan Shelston University of Manchester ========== Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 19:43:18 -0400 From: jgould@andover.edu (John Gould) Subject: Re: Hynes's Selected Poetry Dear Meg, I don't know about the poetry editions, but I do know that tapes of movies are easy to find on the internet, and not all that expensive. Try reel.com or just ask one of the search engines (Altavista, etc.) Good luck, John Gould ========== From: WWKerrigan@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 01:48:02 EDT Subject: Re: Hynes's Selected Poetry You don't really want the Hynes volume. Although he has spend a lifetime studying it, he has no real taste for Hardy's verse. You will do much better with Robert Mezey's Selected Poems (Penguin), which is a noble assembly, with a fine introduction and a useful chronology of Hardy's life. Students like the book. Best, Wally Kerrigan ========== Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 10:04:37 -0500 From: David Havird Subject: Re: Hynes's Selected Poetry Yes, by all means the Mezey rather than the Hynes. DH David Havird Associate Dean of the College Department of English Centenary College of Louisiana Shreveport, LA 71134-1188 (318) 869-5085 or 5240 ========= From: "Philip Sharp" Subject: RE: Hynes's Selected Poetry Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:01:50 -0500 No, not the Mezey. There's 57 times more variety in the Hynes. ========== Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:38:04 -0500 From: Bill Morgan Subject: Hardy Selected Poetry > Meg (and others)-- > > ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊMy two cents' worth on the matter of which Hardy Selected Poetry to order for a seminar on Hardy: > > ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊCent one: Don't order a selection at all if you can get the *Complete Poems*.Ê To quote from Dennis Taylor's fine essay on editions of Hardy (see http://wolf.its.ilstu.edu/hardysoc/TAYLOR2.htm): "But when the paperback of Gibson's Complete Poems is in stock, why buy anything else?"Ê Indeed: why?Ê No selection is as good as *Complete Poems*: period.Ê > > ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊCent two: If there are really good pedagogical reasons for a selection (and I wonder if there are ever good enough reasons), I too recommend Bob Mezey's Penguin, which I have reviewed in the *Thomas Hardy Journal* (XV [October 1999]: 132-4).Ê Although I have a couple of serious complaints about the book (about the tactlessness and inaccuracy of a few passages in the introduction and about the absence of any indication of the source of his texts--see my review), I admire the selection Mezey has made and I admire even more his various notes and commentaries on the poems.Ê > > ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊI think Tim Armstrong's and Joseph Brodsky's selections are still in print as well; you might want to look at them, though, as I say, I would choose Mezey--if I had to choose. > > ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊHappy teaching. > ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊBill Morgan ========== Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:23:28 -0500 From: Bill Morgan Subject: Hardy Selected Poetry > Hardy list-mates: > > ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊJust a footnote to my "Cent one" comment below--further illustration, I hope, of my point that no selection is good enough: If you choose the Mezey, you get all 15 of the "Satires of Circumstance" but only 11 of the "Poems of 1912-13."Ê That's not a choice I would have made, but why have to choose?Ê Get the *Complete Poems.* > > ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊI'll shut up now. ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊBill Morgan ========== Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 13:59:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Meg Cronin Subject: My seminar, new question (long) Dear list members, Thanks to all of you who have commented on the poetry editions (Complete Poems beat out all of the others; now I have to get one) and who gave comments or suggestions about my (and your own) seminar. I look forward to receiving many more such comments (I hope). This posting concerns a group project I would like to assign the students in the seminar, who will range from sophomores to seniors at a small liberal arts college. Each group will contain around 4 people, and the project is meant to demand research, careful and thoughtful use of research, critical analysis and synthesis, and writing and presentation skills. I want the topics to be open enough so that the students are forced to solve a critical problem. I realize that my terms are becoming more and more vague, but that's because this idea isn't fully thought out and I am relying on your input. The project, as I have superficially imagined it, will ask a group to pose and solve a problem or "issue" of reading Hardy. It will ask, abstractly (though I hope to be more specific), "What do we do with the idea of _________ when we read the fiction (or poetry)." That is, "How do we integrate a particular crux or situation into our readings of the works, while remaining focused on the work as a work"? I have not yet found a good way to describe the project, as you can see. These are the five topics. 1. The issue of "place" (the literary idea of place and the fact that Hardy's Wessex is or is based on a real place; imagined and real places in relationship to each other; commitment or lack of commitment to preserve/observe a place accurately in fiction, etc.) 2. The issue of genre (is Hardy writing tragedy, comedy, pastoral, romance, a combination; do these distinctions and our debate about them bring anything to the reading of Hardy?). 3. The problems (general and specific) of serial publication. (So, does a change H. made for publication affect our reading? "Should"--so to speak--Diggory Venn really have married Thomasin?) 4. The problem of the "bio"graphy. 5. The place and use of H's other writings in our readings of the novels. I think some of these topics are stronger than others. I'm not pretending that I'm trying anything radical here. Some or most of these students have never read more than one or two books by a single author. We are spending 14 weeks on 6 novels, a short story or two and the poetry. As this is a seminar, I don't want to lecture all the time, so I wanted a way to bring in--beyond lecture--some of the issues I've listed above. They don't know anything about most of these issues, so they will be fresh to ideas about censorship, regionalism, etc. I realize the topics are way too broad, and I want to narrow them down, but I simply want topics that will accomplish the following:Get students to: -the library, where many books will be available on the topics -think about the inside and outside of fiction/art at the same time -bring together a piece of information (who authored the biography) with its effects on our seeing of the man and works. -put together an original presentation in which several persons have had a part, like a panel or co-authored work - feel they have a full (meaning rich) view of the author and his works; allow them to feel that they know a substantial amount about the ideas they are reading and working on. These are basic but happy goals, and I think we can accomplish them as a class together. I am soliciting suggestions, changes, etc., with your understanding that this isn't fully thought out yet. What projects have you had students do? What were the logistics? Forgive me if some of this is murky and vague. I still have a few weeks to work it out. Right now my mind is addled, as I have spent the summer with my two small delightful children. Addled or no, I wouldn't have wanted to spend it any other way. On Hardy I may be fuzzy right now, but ask me why balloons always have to pop and I can give you a pretty good philosophical answer (the only ones that will do for my son.) Thank you very much. Meg Cronin Meoghan Cronin St. Anselm College mgcronin@anselm.edu ========== Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 15:23:35 -0400 From: Robert Schweik Subject: My seminar, new question Meg, Rosemary Sumner gave a seminar at the last Hardy conference on a topic closely related to your 1. The issue of "place" (the literary idea of place and the fact that Hardy's Wessex is or is based on a real place; imagined and real places in relationship to each other; commitment or lack of commitment to preserve/observe a place accurately in fiction, etc.) I believe that she doesn't have e-mail and isn't on the list, but you can get her address from the TTHA VP page, and, perhaps, there are members of the list who attended that seminar and might recall some of the details of it. Good topic, by the way! Bob schweik@fredonia.edu ========== Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 13:29:35 -0700 From: Betty Cortus Subject: Re: My seminar, new question (long) Dear Meg, A brief but informative discussion on this topic "Places Real and Fictional" in Hardy, which took place on the FORUM back in 1997, was published in the 1998 HARDY REVIEW. This is no longer available through the archives, but if you decide to purchase the Review you will find it under the Overview of the Forum Page. Betty Cortus > 1. The issue of "place" (the literary idea of place and the fact >that Hardy's Wessex is or is based on a real place; imagined and real >places in relationship to each other; commitment or lack of commitment to >preserve/observe a place accurately in fiction, etc.) ========== From: "Alan Shelston" Subject: teaching Hardy Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 16:02:28 +0100 > Could I take the opportunity provided by Meg Cronin's questions to raise a question of my own about teaching Hardy's poetry. Given her recent explanation of what she aims to do an originalÊ response of mine was obviously too elementary, but I find myself still nagging away. Ê Basically, when I am teachingÊ poetry - any poetry - I find myself teaching students how to read it - how in the sense of how to understand what is happening in the poem and what the possibilities are of whatÊ it might be saying.Ê This isn't always as easy as it sounds, if not for the reasons that the discourse theorists might adduce. Ê A basic part of the strategy is to ask the student to read the poem aloud - not, for heaven's sake - to perform it, but because in the simple act of reading one discovers where certain stresses and emphases demandÊÊ to be made. To take a non-Hardy example for a moment: They are all gone into the world of light/And I alone sit lingring here. As I say, the example is obvious, but one has to hear a certain emphasis - not too heavy - on the 'I' in the second line to get the full effect and meaning, leading into the 'They'/'I' polarisation.Ê Ê Ê(In this example the emphasisÊ is consistent with the scansion but this will not always be the case, of course. Counterpointing the rhytms of speech with theÊ formal requirements of scansion is all part of the process.)Ê Ê But try another one that we all know: Ê That I could think there trembled through Ê His happy good-night air Some blessed Hope, whereof he knew Ê And I was unaware. Ê Weight of emphasis on 'he' (l.3) and 'I' (l.4) straightforward, as before (although in my experience the students don't always make it). But what about 'I could' in l.1? Ê Read casually, with roughly equal stress, it probably gives us 'I was enabled to think (and thus went home happy?) But 'I COULD think' emphasis on 'could' gives us a slightly different inference I think - something like 'I could even think - at that moment in time that is, but the effect was probably not lasting'. And then if one puts the emphasis heavily on 'I' - but not on 'could' - we get the sense of I personally - unlike everyone else - was privileged by this special insight, brought about by the thrush's song. These are cognate inferences, but they are certainly not all the same. Ê I should hate to think that this kind of thing is just another example of petty ambiguity seeking -Ê I am not interested in wordÊ games as such. So I seek reassurance on that. But Hardy's poemsÊ come to us as an expression of the spoken - or rather imaginedly spoken - voice, andÊ usually of the still small voice speaking to itself. So we need to hear them as they ask to be spoken, which I think legitimisesÊ what I have been saying Ê But - and a big - but. I find myself saying two things to my students who are often intimidated by poetry.Ê 1. The poem may possibly mean what it actually says.Ê At least begin with that pre-supposition. 2. To discover what it says you have to hear what is said, physically hear it, that is, and this latter can make for difficulties forÊ a minority of themÊ who simply can't hear it in that way. Are they then linguistically tone-deaf, as some people who are tone-deaf cannot sing? No fault of theirs, but if so, is it possible for them really to understand the poem and the way it works? Or am I making it all up? Ê Meg, I'm afraid this is miles away >from your original questions and I apologise for that. But if anyone has any comment I should be grateful for it. Ê Alan Shelston, University of Manchester ========== Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 10:00:06 +0200 From: Jens Kirk Organization: Aalborg Universitet Subject: Re: teaching Hardy Alan Shelston, I think you make an important point when you highlight metre in your poetry classes. In order to succeed, we simply have to give students a sense of what makes poetry special as a genre. In fact, I think careful attention to metre (and other aspects, of course)is a way of avoiding what you call "petty ambiguity seeking." I mean, it's not petty if we can map out in a fairly objective way how meaning(s) are constructed in a given text. For non-native speakers the problem you mention of being "linguistically tone-deaf" is, of course, a very serious one - especially for first year students. Here, I've found some introductions to reading poetry very helpful, for instance, the one Tom Furniss and Michael Bath published three or four years ago. If I remember correctly, it has a splendid chapter on metre. Jens Kirk Aalborg University ========== From: brown@jc.edu Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 10:27:21 -0500 Subject: Re: teaching Hardy To Jens Kirk, Alan Shelston, and any others interested in teaching students to appreciate meter: One of the most valuable essays on the subject with which I am acquainted is "The Audible Reading of Poetry," by Yvor Winters, which may be found in his book _The Function of Criticism: Problems and Exercises_ (Chicago: Swallow, 1957) 79-100. Mark Brown Jamestown College North Dakota, USA ========== Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 09:45:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Meg Cronin Subject: Re: teaching Hardy Dear Alan, Your original response to my posting was not at all too elementary for me or for my students. Nearly every course I teach (19thc Brit) involves careful, time-intensive examination of poetry, often line by line, and we do spend time on reading aloud and prosody. Much to my delight, my English department spent our faculty development money this year on a four day seminar for ourselves on the subject (and practice) of prosody. So, far from being either ambiguous or petty, your comments, for me, are helpful and on target. In fact, your emphasis recently on the poetry has reminded me that, as this Hardy seminar covers poetry as well as six novels, I should not be putting all my preparation into the novels. Thank you for detailed responses. By the way (I think I may have already posted this news), I did find a copy of the Complete Poems on bibliofind. I'm paying $12.50 for it, including priority mail costs. Thanks again and thank you as well to everyone who has responded to my questions about my seminar. Meg Meoghan Cronin St. Anselm College mgcronin@anselm.edu ========== From: "Alan Shelston" Subject: Re: teaching Hardy Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:24:11 +0100 Thanks to Meg and others for their comments and suggestions. Alan Shelston ========== Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:08:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Meg Cronin Subject: Re: Teaching Hardy On another note, my Hardy seminar is going swimmingly (I don't get to write that word very often), thanks to some of your suggestions. Dale Kramer's Cambridge Companion has been enormously helpful, especially as I am having students perform as projects undergraduate versions of many of the topics in Kramer's book. So, the students are looking at Wessex, and genre, and auto-/biography, etc. And, though I have said this before, my Complete Poems (suggested by many of you, in particular Professor Gibson) is a godsend. Praise be to bibliofind.com! Meg Cronin Meoghan Cronin St. Anselm College mgcronin@anselm.edu ==========