HARDY FORUM ARCHIVE H0039 4/20/00 "HARDY'S VIEWS ON MARRIAGE". ===================================================== Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 10:59:30 +1000 From: David Cornelius Subject: Hardy's views on marriage Dear All, Might I ask a couple of what might seem trite questions, but they have intrigued me for a while? Is it true to say that Hardy had a distaste for marriage? The only succesful ones that I can recall are those of Baptista Trewthen in "A Mere Interlude" (and that was loveless) and Lucy in "Fellow-Townsmen" (which was incidental), and possibly Fancy Day's. The second question is possibly linked to the first. Is it fair to say that Jemima 'emasculated' her children (if one can emasculate daughters)? Hardy's problems with Emma seem to have begun with the mother. His father and brother, I seem to recall, took to clandestinely watching lovers. I fear that Hardy may have done so as well as there are so many references in his writings that may be seen as voyeurish. Regards, David Cornelius **** David Cornelius 5 Caltowie Place Coffs Harbour, NSW, Australia. dcorney@midcoast.com.au Carpe diem! ========== From: Sarah Dangelantonio Subject: RE: Hardy's views on marriage Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:47:12 -0400 While I think that the relationships aren't "romanticized" or "idealized," the marriage between Ethelberta Petherwin and Lord Mountclere and the oneÊ between Picotee and Christopher Julian seem at least satisfactory. (We could spend much time discussing the implications and nuances of both of these) We could also look at the marriages of non-central characters and see that these are often satisfactory as well (I was thinking of Ethelberta's parents in The Hand of Ethelberta perhaps and Fancy Day's parents from Under the Greenwood Tree).Ê Sarah Sarah Bearinger Dangelantonio Professor of English Coordinator, Individual and Community Integrated Curriculum Coordinator, College Writing, WAC, Writing Center Franklin Pierce College Rindge, NHÊ 03461 603-899-4295 ========== From: "Alan Shelston" Subject: Re: Hardy's views on marriage Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:03:05 +0100 Hardy as voyeur is obviously a delicate topic. But I would agree that there are references in the works that might support such a suggestion. I have always thought that it is to do with the conventional upbringing of someone of Hardy's class, together with the way in which women's dress of the period both concealed and accentuated female sexuality - H is thus 'curious' about women, and in particular about their bodies. What is remarkable is his understanding of the situations in which he places his female characters - notably Tess and Sue - and of their responses. Hardy understands why Sue must refuse herself to both Phillotson and Jude better than most of the critics. ========== Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 20:41:22 -0400 From: Robert Schweik Subject: Re: Hardy's views on marriage In answer to David Cornelius's question, the conclusion of *Far from the Madding Crowd* certainly is intended to leave the reader with a sense that the marriage of Oak and Bathsheba will be successful. Bob Schweik schweik@fredonia.edu ========== From: "Alan Shelston" Subject: Re: Hardy's views on marriage Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:32:07 +0100 Robert Schweik is right - and for those who like this kind of thing sterling English oak wins out over bold wood and the lack of substance of Troy weight. Or, to put it another way, Bathsheba settles for Gabriel's diminutive flute rather than Boldwood's shotgun or Troy's sword. But more seriously FFMC, which is a beautifully composed novel, tends to be forgotten in overviews of Hardy's fiction, simply because it does come to this understated and entirely appropriate conclusion. Incidentally Bathsheba is surely relevant to the voyeur question which I note that we are all apparently reluctant to address. Alan Shelston ========== Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 08:19:32 -0500 From: Bill Morgan Subject: Re: Hardy's views on marriage Well, let me dissent--just slightly--from Bob & Alan's interpretation of the ending of FFMC. It's true that the *next-to-last* chapter of FFMC ends with a beautiful tribute to companionable love--camaraderie--which it calls "the only love which is strong as death--that love which many waters cannot quench, nor the floods drown, beside which the passion usually called by the name is evanescent as steam." But that celebration of solid marital love is not the novel's last word on the subject: the actual last chapter is given over to the voices of the rustics, who are a good deal more skeptical: [Gabriel:] . . . I had a thought that we might very likely get a salute of some sort from our old friends, and I was saying so to my wife but now. "Faith," said Coggan in a critical tone, turning to his companions, "The man hev learnt to say 'my wife' in a wonderful naterel way, considering how very youthful he is in wedlock as yet--hey, neighbours all?" "I never heerd a skilful old married feller of twenty years' standing pipe 'my wife' in a more used not than 'a did," said Jacob Smallbury. "It might have been a little more true to nater if 't had been spoke a little chillier, but that wasn't to be expected just now." "That improvement will come wi' time," said Jan, twirling his eye. (pp. 414-5/World's Classics Edition) Joseph Poorgrass actually gets the last word, declaring that he wishes Gabriel joy of her--and that "Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone." So, while I find myself fully in sympathy with the narrator's celebration of companionable love, I'm not so sure that the novel endorses Gabriel & Bathsheba's relationship without the skeptical qualification added by that last chapter. In fact, the two positions espoused in the next-to-last and last chapters have been in dialogue all through the novel, and neither position has definitive authority, in my opinion. cheers, Bill Morgan ========== Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:57:22 -0300 From: Richard Nemesvari Organization: St. Francis Xavier University I'm not going to touch this one with a barge pole. Having just finished reading Robert Schweik's "Less the Faithfully Presented: Fictions in Modern Commentaries on Hardy's *Tess of the d'Urbervilles,* I know exactly what will happen should I suggest that the closure of *Far from the Madding Crowd* is potentially ambiguous, and that Bathsheba and Gabriel's marriage might not be as "happily ever after" as one might hope. I'll just point out that others have said so, and draw the original poster's attention to Rosemarie Morgan's discussion of the novel in *Women and Sexuality in the Novels of Thomas Hardy.* And I'm sure she'll thank me for thrusting her in where I dare not tread! Also, since I seem to be throwing references around, on the topic of voyeurism in the novel I found Linda Shires' piece "Narrative, Gender, and Power in *Far from the Madding Crowd*" in Margaret R. Higonnet's *The Sense of Sex* very useful. I do think that I'd have to disagree with Alan Shelston's assertion that *FFMC* tends to be "forgetten" in overviews of Hardy, since a quick survey of the books on my shelves shows that it is almost inevitabley given a close reading in such studies. As the first of the so-called "major" novels, and Hardy's first significant success, I think it draws a large amount of attention, however one interprets its conclusion. And just for curiosity's sake, I'd be interested in anyone's response to the conclusion of *Under the Greenwood Tree.* The Dick Dewy-Parson Maybold-Mr. Shiner triangle that rotates around Fancy Day isn't an exact parallel to the Oak-Boldwood-Troy one that ecompasses (oops, loaded word) Bathsheba, but it's close enough. Does Hardy also intend to leave us with a sense that the marriage of Dick and Fancy will be successful? Richard Nemesvari Department of English St. Francis Xavier University ========== Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:56:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Keith Wilson Subject: Re: Hardy's views on marriage Wouldn't it be safer to locate Hardy's views on marriage somewhere other than in the imaginative works -- in letters, for example? The problem with identifying his personal views with those of characters, or locating those personal views in textual situations, is the problem Hardy himself identified in relation to _Jude_: that "As to the 'marriage question' I wonder they [hostile commentators] do not see that my own opinions are nowhere given" (_Letters_ Vol II, 97). Or a little later: "The very last charges I expected them to bring against a book concerned merely with the doom of hereditary temperament & unsuitable mating in marriage were that it was an attack on marriage in general, that it was immoral, & that characters who recant their opinions & come to a sad end were puppets invented to express my personal views in their talk" (_Letters_ Vol II, 104). This could, of course, be Hardy being disingenuous again, but it does reveal the potential problem with assuming that opinions/ideas embodied in imaginary characters/situations have any kind of one-to-one correspondence with an author's personal views. In a much later letter to Florence Henniker, Hardy elaborates on his actual personal views in tones that carry conviction. Commenting on H. G. Wells' _The New Machiavelli_, Hardy writes: "I have not read Wells carefully enough to discern his exact theories on the marriage question (if he has any), but you know what I have thought for many years: that marriage should not thwart nature, & that when it does thwart nature it is no real marriage, & the legal contract should therefore be as speedily cancelled as possible. Half the misery of human life would I think disappear if this were made easy: where there were no children at the wish of both or either: where there were children after an examination of the case by a court, & an order for certain provisions to be made." (_Letters_, Vol IV, 177). The index in Volume VII of the _Letters_ cites ten entries for "marriage, views on." ***** Keith Wilson Department of English, University of Ottawa 70 Laurier Avenue East, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K1N 6N5 Telephone/Voice-Mail: (613) 562 5770; Fax: (613) 562-5990 e-mail: kgwilson@aix1.uottawa.ca ========== Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 13:15:33 -0400 From: Robert Schweik Subject: Re: Hardy's views on marriage Bill has been careful to set forth the relevant texts of the conclusion of Far from the Madding Crowd, so I need only make this brief comment. I gave Hardy's omniscient narrator's comments more weight than I did the comic banter of the rustics. That amuses both Oak and Bathsheba, and the only one to take it seriously is Joseph Poorgrass, who then babbles on about "Ephraim is joined to idols" in his "scripture manner." It was that context that made me think that Smallbury's joking comment was not to be given any more weight than what a light-hearted ending of the novel called for. However, that Oak and Bathsheba *do* have a happy marriage is fortunately no longer in any doubt whatever. Just read *Weatherbury Farm*, a sequel to *Far from the Madding Crowd* to find out for yourselves. See Links C 51 for details. Cheers! Bob Robert Schweik Distinguished Teaching Professor, Emeritus State University of New York College at Fredonia Fredonia, NY 14063 E-mail: schweik@ait.fredonia.edu ========== Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:33:19 -0700 From: Betty Cortus Subject: Re: Hardy's views on marriage Members may be interested to learn the TTHA President, Rosemarie Morgan has just published a broad-ranging study on the subject of Hardy and marriage in the recently announced _Oxford Reader's Companion to Hardy_, ed. Norman Page. Some of the aspects of this topic which she examines are: * Hardy's attitude in real life as revealed in the letters and autobiography. * His attitude to matrimonial issues in the light of contemporary politics (J.S.Mill etc.) * His treatment of marriage in the novels, with a focus on the institution of marriage as fostering both the sexual double standard and inequity between the sexes/the legalities of divorce. * His reaction within and beyond the Wessex world to the prevailing sexual ideology and its effect on love relationships. * His "alternative" world of marriage and love relationships as developed in the poems. I think you will find this one of the most cogent and comprehensive discussions of the whole marriage question to date. Betty Cortus hardycor@mailhost2.csusm.edu ========== From: "Alan Shelston" Subject: Re: Hardy's views on marriage Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:31:44 +0100 Yes, I was certainly a bit simplistic on the FFMC/marriage issue, and I take the point of the qualifications. But (1) I think that BobSchweik is surely right in larger terms about the ending: the comments of the choric characters are exactly that - a different kind of wisdom from a different source, that counterbalances the main thrust of the ending. And (2) this leads me into my second point, which relates to my suggestion that FFMC is relatively unconsidered where an overview of Hardy is concerned. FFMC is really a novel in a different mode from what we normally associate with Hardy - formally, it might be said, a comedy, albeit one in which tragic things happen. Hence the prominence of the heroine, the geometric working out of the love theme, and the formal resolution of the ending. But a generation which has been brought up to see Tess, and even more Jude, as typical of the Hardy world-view, finds it difficult to associate Hardy with the notion of formal comedy, and the kind of creative vision that it involves. So while yes, FFMC gets its recognition, I'm not sure that it is always recognised for what it is. Alan Shelston, University of Manchester ==========