HARDY FORUM ARCHIVE H0034 3/31/00 "HARDY AND LYONNESSE". ================================================= From: "Patrick Roper" Subject: Hardy and Lyonnesse Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:18:03 +0100 This is somewhat tangential to this thread and, as I am a new subscriber, please forgive me if I am stating the obvious or if this has already been discussed. I was, however, propelled into action by Meg Cronin's comments on this topic. In a posting in February 1998, Betty Cortus said: "among the other poems Hardy himself expressed a particular liking for is 'When I Set Out For Lyonesse.' Furthermore, in the _Life_ he asserts that he 'did not dissent' from the American reader who called it 'his sweetest lyric.'" First I would like to ask what people think the poem means (did Hardy ever 'explain' it?). I have my own views and it particularly interests me as I have done much research into Lyonesse (I'll come back on that, if I may, in the future). So far as beliefs are concerned there are some strongly mystical and non-Christian elements in the poem and, if Hardy himself held it in such high regard, it would seem a little unlikely that he was just writing a casual improvisation on a bit of folk magic. Patrick Roper ========== Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:08:38 -0800 From: Betty Cortus Subject: Re: Hardy and Lyonnesse Dear Patrick, First let me welcome you to the HARDY-L Forum. The piece I was quoting about "When I Set Out for Lyonesse" can be found on page 78 of Michael Millgate"s edition of _The Life and Work Of Thomas Hardy_, U of Georgia P, 1985. In this chapter (V) Hardy describes his first visit to Cornwall and his romantic meeting with Emma, the future Mrs. Hardy. But I think you are right about him finding "Lyonesse" a deeply magical place in a mystical pre-Christian sense as well as a romantic one. His retelling of the Tristram and Isuelt legend in _The Famous Tragedy of the Queen of Cornwall_ might be something you would enjoy taking a look at. Best Wishes Betty Cortus hardycor@mailhost2.csusm.edu ========== From: "Patrick Roper" Subject: Hardy and Lyonnesse Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 16:14:03 +0100 Thankyou, Betty, for welcoming me to the HARDY-L Forum and for your helpful comments on "When I set out for Lyonnesse" (Hardy seems to spell it with two n's). Unfortunately I do not have a copy of Michael Millgate's edition of _The Life and Work Of Thomas Hardy_ to hand but, from what you say, Hardy wrote the poem as a reflection on his first meeting with Emma, the future Mrs Hardy, in Cornwall. I gather this was at St Juliot and thus I have some further puzzles. This parish is in north east Cornwall and, so far as I have read, Hardy called the Isles of Scilly 'Lyonnesse'. The poem also refers to the fact that "The rime was on the spray", indicating he went by boat. If he travelled 100 miles, this sounds as though he started from Weymouth or somewhere like that, but he would hardly have gone to St Juliot by boat. I wonder also if there is some relevance in the two versions of the last stanza? In what I think is the earlier Hardy says "What meant my godlike gloriousness,/When I came back from Lyonnesse." which could obviously mean he had fallen in love with Emma. In the later version, however, he says "My radiance rare and fathomless,/When I came back from Lyonnesse." That implies, to me, a change from an assertive young man to a reflective older one, but in saying that I am going far beyond my ability to interpret Hardy and the first version may, in any case, have been written at a relatively late date. Am I wrong in thinking that perhaps the poem deliberately conflates two episodes in Hardy's life: his first meeting with Emma and a later journey to the Isles of Scilly? Apropos of all this, not all subscribers may know that in west Cornwall and Scilly the word 'Lyonesse' is pronounced as in the word for a female lion and not in the French manner as in 'Lyons' (Lee-on) in south east France. Hardy, I am sure, would have been aware of this and thus it can affect the way the poem is read. Patrick Roper ========== Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 13:04:52 -0700 From: Betty and/or John Cortus Subject: Re: Hardy and Lyonnesse Dear Patrick, I am by no means an expert on Hardy's fictional geography, but I do know his fictional place names don't always coincide with real life places. The best map of Hardy's Cornwall I have on hand is in the Penguin Classics edition of _A Pair of Blue Eyes_, ed. Roger Ebbatson. As far as I can see Hardy gives all of Cornwall the fictional name of "Lyonnesse" and doesn't limit it to the Scilly Isles. I do hope someone will correct me if I am wrong. According to my map the St. Juliot rectory where Emma Gifford lived was only about a mile or so from the sea. So I think it is far more likely that Hardy was describing the view of the ocean from somewhere like Beeny Cliff when he speaks of the "rime" being on the "spray" than his impressions on a boat trip. This would have been a side trip the lovers made, and not part of his journey from Dorset to Cornwall I believe. Can others clarify this? Best Regards, Betty Cortus hardycor@mailhost2.csusm.edu ========== From: brown@jc.edu Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 14:36:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Hardy and Lyonnesse Patrick Roper wrote: By "spray" Hardy means "A small branch bearing buds, flowers, or berries," not "Water or other liquid moving in a mass of dispersed droplets, as from a wave" (*The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language*, 1973 ed.). Cf. the medieval lyric "I sing of a maiden": He came all so still Where his mother lay As dew in April That falleth on the spray. Mark Brown ========== Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 16:53:24 -0400 From: Rosemarie Morgan Subject: Re: Hardy and Lyonnesse Patrick writes: "The rime was on the spray", indicating he went by boat. >If he travelled 100 miles, this sounds as though he started from >Weymouth or somewhere like that, but he would hardly have gone to St >Juliot by boat. _____________ Hardy travelled by train to St Juliot on March 7th 1870. He set off before dawn and arrived the same evening. The "spray" reference is as in "sprig of flowers"-- "rime" being a light hoar-frost settles (sparkling & silvery) on the ground and on low-growing shrubs but not on the sea. Best, Rosemarie ========== From: "Patrick Roper" Subject: RE: Hardy and Lyonnesse Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:04:12 +0100 Mark, Yes. How stupid of me! I wonder how many other people thought the line referred to frosted plants rather than stormy seas. Since Lyonnesse, by other's as well as his own accounts, was "offshore" and strongly associated with the sea because of its supposed inundation, Hardy would surely have known his readers would understand the line in the maritime sense. Maybe he enjoyed (as I am now doing) the ambiguity. It also reminds me of that delightful phrase a "blackthorn winter" which, in the current cold spell, they are probably experiencing right now in Dorset. The ambiguity there, of course, is that the blackthorn flowers do give miles of hedgerows the appearance of snowdrifts, but they might also, in April's uncertain weather, be frosted with rime. Did Hardy ever use the expression? Patrick Roper ========== Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:28:18 -0700 From: Betty Cortus Subject: RE: Hardy and Lyonnesse Of course, Mark and Rosemarie. It was still cold, wintry weather when Hardy made that first trip to Cornwall, and the frost would naturally be on the vegetation. Frost on ocean spray doesn't make sense. I should have thought of that myself. Betty Cortus ========== From: Martin Ray Sender: enl090@abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: Hardy and Lyonnesse Incidentally, the OED cites Hardy's use of 'spray' here in its definition of the word as 'small or slender twigs of trees or shrubs'. I don't think we are meant to imagine flowers (March 7??). All the best Martin ---------------------- Dr Martin Ray Department of English University of Aberdeen Aberdeen Scotland, UK m.ray@abdn.ac.uk ========== From: "Patrick Roper" Subject: Hardy & Lyonnesse Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:09:06 +0100 Thanks to everyone who has helped to clarify points about TH's poem "When I set out for Lyonnesse", especially in regard to the meaning of "When rime was on the spray" (when hoar frost was on the bushes). In a way what has been said further complicates the issue for me. I have recited the first verse of the poem to several people and nearly all have said they think it describes a sea voyage. It seems probable to me that TH was aware of this dimension of the poem and I wonder if he was comparing his train journey to St Juliot to a voyage to a magical land (which, because of his meeting with Emma, it was in a sense). It is worth pointing out in this context that his story "A Mere Interlude" published, I think, in 1913, a year before the poem (although this was written much earlier) is very much about the sea and equates the Isles of Scilly with Lyonnesse. The word "rime", though it does normally mean hoar frost, has many significant maritime associations and is often used to describe the foam of the tide left on the beach or rocks. Kipling used it in his poem "The Gift of the Sea": "Then came a cry from the sea,/But the sea-rime blinded the glass," and there is the line from the Anglo-Saxon poem "The Wanderer" - "hreran mid handum hrim-cealde sae" (row by hand the rime-cold sea). "The Wanderer" deals with the far from certain feelings the writer had in moving from his original pagan religion to Christianity and seems to me to express a similar sentiment to that in the first verse of TH's "The Impercipient" (recently mentioned by Keith Wilson in the "Beliefs" thread) the "drear destiny" of the last line being close to the "fate is inexorable" of the Anglo-Saxon. I wonder if TH knew "The Wanderer". If he did he could have thought it reflected some of his own feelings about the nature of Christianity and where it might be heading. TH's "When I set out for Lyonnesse" also reflects Masefield's ever-popular "Sea-Fever" written towards the end of the 19th century. In the first verse the poet refers to loneliness, the sea and stars. While this might be coincidence, it perhaps highlights the fact that these elements are often found in poems about voyages and I suppose the most celebrated voyage poem in English is "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner". My question is am I trying to read too much into all this? Does Hardy's poetry generally mean what it says, or was he inclined at least some of the time, to use complex literary allusions and ambiguities? ========== From: "Patrick Roper" Subject: Where was Hardy's Lyonnesse? Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:49:50 +0100 Betty Cortus pointed out that TH's fictional place names don't always coincide with real life places and it would seem that he did not think of Lyonnesse as being one particular place, but either some or all of Cornwall or just the Isles of Scilly. In the story "A Mere Interlude", Lyonnesse is undoubtedly the Isles of Scilly, but in the poem "When I set out for Lyonnesse" it is where St Juliot is in north east Cornwall. He also equates it with the mainland in his play "The Famous Tragedy of the Queen of Cornwall at Tintagel in Lyonnesse." Both the Isles of Scilly and Cornwall are, in a sense, justifiable as Lyonesse outside Hardy's world. The Isles of Scilly have long been associated with Lyonesse and many people there think of them as being the surviving fragments of this larger land. So far as St Juliot is concerned, in Malory's "Morte D'Arthur" there is an episode where, after a fight at Tintagel, the protagonists make a day's ride to the "castle of Liones" and St Juliot is certainly within a days ride of Tintagel. The title of the play is particularly curious as he describes Tintagel as though it were not in Cornwall, unless one thinks of Lyonnesse as being some sort of subdivision of the Duchy like Penwith or Roseland (as in "St Anthony in Roseland"). Patrick Roper ========== Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:14:37 -0400 From: Rosemarie Morgan Subject: Re: Hardy and Lyonnesse Yes, Martin, -- I did give this some thought (blossoms in March). Then I took a chance based on the rather unsuitable comparison with Swanage (Dorset) where I lived for 15 years and where my roses sometimes bloomed through the entire winter! Anyone living in Cornwall to enlighten us? Thanks Rosemarie PS "unsuitable" because Swanage is said to have more hours of sunshine each year than other South Western seaside towns. ========== Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:37:48 +0100 To: HARDY-L@csusm.edu From: Ray Girvan Subject: Re: Hardy and Lyonnesse Not Cornwall, but I am in East Devon. Flowers on March 7th is perfectly plausible (here, for instance, fruit blossom, magnolia, primroses, etc have all been in bloom since early March). It's even milder in Cornwall. Ray Girvan -- ray.girvan@zetnet.co.uk +++ Technical Author +++ Topsham, Devon, UK http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rgirvan/ +++ The Apothecary's Drawer ========== Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 12:49:46 -0400 From: Rosemarie Morgan Subject: Re: Hardy and Lyonnesse Thanks Ray! And while we're on the subject of things topographical I have another question for you. Frank Pinion speaks of the "Isles of Lyonnesse" (Scilly Isles) & tells us that "Lyonnesse" is a romantic name, "associated with Arthurian legend and the north coast of Cornwall, particularly Tintagel Castle." He refers to the revival of this name by Tennyson in his "Morte d'Arthur and Idylls of the King. Patrick Roper has several times mentioned the sea-voyaging aspect of Hardy's poem and the resonant images of "spray" as both sea-spray and/or branchlets or flowers. "Spray" incidentally, has two different etymologies, one from Old English as "sprig' and the other from M/H German as "sprinkle." My question (prompted by the Swanage conversation) reverts back to the internal topography of the poem and the idea of a sea-encompassed voyage to Lyonnesse. Is "Lyonnesse" or it's real-life equivalent on the Cornish peninsular in any way regarded by locals as as island formation? I ask this because that particular piece of land is almost virtually surrounded by water (sea and rivers) as is the Swanage region which is referred to by locals as "The Isle of Purbeck." In the case of Swanage (which I draw upon simply because I know it well), there was a time in past history when the river at Wareham (flanking The Isle of Purbeck) was considerably larger providing a working dockside for incoming traffic from Poole harbour. Over time the river has shrunk and is now suitable only for small sailing craft. Thus, the "island" formation was clearly defined in earlier times by the large size of the harbour inflow to Wareham. Even today the causeway to Swanage, which passes through heron-filled water-meadows, gets flooded from time to time. At any rate, legendary or not, The Isle of Purbeck, with that peculiar sense of autonomy which goes with island culture, retains for itself the idea of being encompassed by many waters. Would there have been, for Hardy, in his imaginary "Lyonnesse" of the poem's title, the idea of voyaging out to a legendary island? And would that help to explain the subtle ambiguity of his imagery-- the "spray" (which serves as being born of both earth and sea), and "rime", while also appears to have sea-connotations? Just a thought (if rather longwindedly expressed--apologies). Cheers, Rosemarie ========== From: "Patrick Roper" Subject: RE: Hardy and Lyonnesse Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:34:55 +0100 > And while we're on the subject of things topographical > I have another > question for you. Frank Pinion speaks of the "Isles of > Lyonnesse" (Scilly > Isles) & tells us that "Lyonnesse" is a romantic name, > "associated with > Arthurian legend and the north coast of Cornwall, > particularly Tintagel > Castle." He refers to the revival of this name by Tennyson > in his "Morte > d'Arthur and Idylls of the King. Tennyson did not really revive the name, it never went way, though he popularised it through the above mentioned poems. His inspiration for the Morte d'Arthur (apart from Malory) is said to have been Whitesand Bay at Sennen Cove in the far west of Cornwall. The start of this is: "So all day long the noise of battle roll'd/Among the mountains by the winter sea;/Until King Arthur's table, man by man,/Had fallen in Lyonnesse about their Lord" The first mention of Lyonesse as a 'real' Cornish place was, as far as I can discover, by William Worcestre in 1478. The story was further embellished by Richard Carew and Camden in his "Brittannia" and became a tract of land between Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly which had 183 churches etc. and that was irretrievably inundated. Over the years there have been various reports of bits of building being fished up, structures below the water, muffled bells and so on, but it seems pretty certain that Lyonesse was never in this part of the world (though there could have been some catastrophic inundations that became confused with Lyonesse). The idea of Lyonesse originally emerged mainly via the stories of Tristan and Iseult that were popular in the Middle Ages since Tristan was 'Tristan of Lyonesse'. In some of the earliest extant accounts of his adventures (mostly from mainland Europe) he is said to come from 'Loenois' or 'Leonois' (there are many variants). This almost certainly derives ultimately from the Latin 'Lugdunensis', itself from the P-Celtic 'Lugdunon' (hill of the god Lug or Lugus). Brittany, or Armorica as it was then known, was part of the province of Lugdunensis III in Roman Gaul. A chunk of what is now lowland Scotland was also called Lugdunensis (now transmuted into 'Lothian'). Inevitably this has led to two of the many schools of thought: that the Tristan stories originally came either from Cornwall/Brittany, or from southern Scotland. There are several other possible explanations for the origin of 'Lyonesse', but it always seems to be an elusive place associated with Celtic magic and mystery which is why, I suppose, it has fascinated many poets included, of course, Sylvia Plath. > Patrick Roper has several times mentioned the > sea-voyaging aspect of > Hardy's poem and the resonant images of > "spray" as both sea-spray and/or branchlets or flowers. "Spray" > incidentally, has two different etymologies, one from Old > English as "sprig' > and the other from M/H German as "sprinkle." My question > (prompted by the > Swanage conversation) reverts back to the internal > topography of the poem > and the idea of a sea-encompassed voyage to Lyonnesse. Is > "Lyonnesse" or > it's real-life equivalent on the Cornish peninsular in any > way regarded by > locals as as island formation? Many people in the Land's End area - fishermen and so on - say they think the Lyonesse story should not be completely cast aside and some equate it with the Seven Stones Reef halfway to Scilly. The people in Scilly often claim that the islands are a remnant of Lyonesse and, while the archipelgo was probably one island as recently as 5000 years ago, I personally do not think it was ever Lyonesse. So far as Hardy is concerned, I am not sure if he ever went to Scilly. In 'The Mere Interlude' of 1913 he was certainly equating Scilly with Lyonesse and I wonder if that is because he heard it so called when he was there. A point here is that if one read 'A Mere Interlude' in 1913, and 'When I set out for Lyonnesse' when it was first published a year later, one would naturally tend to assume that the latter was about a journey to an island by sea. Patrick Roper ========== Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:29:22 +0100 From: Ray Girvan Subject: Re: Hardy and Lyonnesse Rosemarie Morgan writes: > And while we're on the subject of things topographical I have another > question for you. Frank Pinion speaks of the "Isles of Lyonnesse" (Scilly > Isles) & tells us that "Lyonnesse" is a romantic name, "associated with > Arthurian legend and the north coast of Cornwall, particularly Tintagel > Castle." Yes. Have you seen Patrick's web page? http://www.patrickroper.co.uk/lyonesse/index.htm This summarises the mythology very well. The dominant description is that Lyonesse wasn't an island, but a now-submerged land between Cornwall and the Scillies. > My question (prompted by the Swanage conversation) reverts back > to the internal topography of the poem and the idea of a > sea-encompassed voyage to Lyonnesse. Is "Lyonnesse" or it's > real-life equivalent on the Cornish peninsular in any way regarded > by locals as as island formation? My feeling is no. However, there are places - again, see Patrick's page - that are traditionally viewed as remnants of Lyonesse. In any case, whatever the possible identification with solid geography, Hardy was sufficiently erudite that I'm sure he'd also have in mind the mythological Lyonesse (i.e. a lost submerged land ... yet one with mystical properties allowing it to be visited in some sense by someone with the right mindset). > Would there have been, for Hardy, in his imaginary "Lyonnesse" of the > poem's title, the idea of voyaging out to a legendary island? And would that > help to explain the subtle ambiguity of his imagery-- the "spray" (which > serves as being born of both earth and sea), and "rime", while also appears > to have sea-connotations? I think this makes sense. Interestingly, "Night Sea Journey" is one of the descriptions for the threshold crossing to the 'other world' in the Campbell Cycle mythological scheme. That Hardy doesn't describe the details of Lyonnesse in the poem suggests to me he's also talking of just such an 'internal' journey: crossing into a figurative land and coming back with enlightenment. Perhaps the ambiguity intentionally parallels two journeys: a physical one on land, simultaneously with a metaphorical (spiritual) sea journey? Ray Girvan -- ray.girvan@zetnet.co.uk +++ Technical Author +++ Topsham, Devon, UK http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rgirvan/ +++ The Apothecary's Drawer ========== Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:16:33 -0400 From: Rosemarie Morgan Subject: Re: Hardy and Lyonnesse Thank you, both Ray and Patrick, for this Thor's day of enlightenment! Blessings, Rosemarie ========== From: "Patrick Roper" Subject: RE: Hardy & Lyonnesse Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:51:32 +0100 > Dear Patrick: What a lovely thing your double vision is! How nice of you to think that. I am not sure if it is double vision really but I believe all literature is what it is to the reader rather than to the writer. And sometimes, of course, the reader is, or was, the writer. > I believe you > should assume that Thomas Hardy's extraordinary genius > produced ambiguity > and depth upon depth all the time in all his writings - with this > assumption, then, you are free to discover the wonderments > he left for us > whether or not he intended them or knew of them. Clearly, > he wrote them. Yes, I agree and it is easy to read too much in to ambiguities. Perhaps I am trying to find out if Hardy went through a similar process to myself. In 1998 I had to spend much time working at Land's End in Cornwall although I live in East Sussex so, in a manner of speaking, I made the journey to Lyonesse. I didn't meet an Emma (I wasn't looking for one), but I did discover a whole new world of Celtic literature and mystery. It seems to me that Hardy, as a very literate person, might have heard folk tales and legends at St Juliot and later followed them up. This, of course, could have given him an awareness of some of the beliefs from the pre-Christian period that were certainly current in Cornwall until very recently, in particular the idea that there are 'Otherworlds' running parallel to our own which, given the right conditions, are visitable by normal mortals. I think he would have been intrigued. I have found some other links that may have influenced him and will post these soon. I think they can only ever be classified as 'possibles' rather than 'definites', but I don't think that is important. My thoughts were triggered by his work and, like all writers, much of what he did must have been subconscious, a plaiting together of all the many things he had seen and heard. > If one's vision is as able as yours, it must have met, > happily, his! Well, maybe. For years I worked at 4 Grosvenor Gardens in London which I think Hardy either lived in or visited frequently. Perhaps I picked up some vibes! Patrick Roper ==========